Are Americans so angry about politics because the U.S. is declining as a world power?

[Grey]

Shhhhh… you’ll ruin the effect.

[gonzomax]

http://www.nti.org/db/china/supercom.htm Yes children, it was not so long ago that computers were restricted from China. Yes kiddies it was because we were afraid of military uses. Yes its twue its weally twue.

[MOIDALIZE]

Yeah…supercomputers. That doesn’t say anything about PCs, and I’m pretty sure WalMart didn’t figure out a way to sell supercomputers to China.

[Grey]

gonzo no one said it wasn’t true, only that they weren’t the biggest communist threat at the time. The question is “Is China an enemy?”. If it is, then sure you should likely restrict trade though that would hardly stop other less antagonistic countries from trading with them. But if China is NOT an enemy (which it isn’t right now) then why not establish normal trade relations?

[Least_Original_User_Name_Ever]

@xtisme

You will be unsurprised to learn that it smells like completely horseshit to me. When were American politics more calm or reasonable? Has America been declining for it’s entire history? Political turmoil and rantage have been MUCH higher in the past. Look at the 60’s for gods sake! Were we a declining power then too? And why would American’s CARE what our position is on the world stage? We are pretty much internally focused. It’s silly to think that our politics today are angry or loud because of some perception that we are declining (and I don’t even know how valid the PERCEPTION is, from American’s perspectives). We’re angry and loud because we’ve ALWAYS been angry and loud.

Not that I’m buying that the US is on the downhill slope either. That other countries are on the rise doesn’t equate to the US is going down…that’s the thinking of the zero sum crowd, that if one country rises another must fall to make room. Horseshit. China can rise (if it gets past it’s own myriad problems and issues) and America can still be a world power. Europe can rise (again, if they get past their own issues) and America can still be an economic and military power.

To me, this is similar to stuff I remember hearing before Japan took the long drop, about how they were going to take over and the US was on the decline, blah blah blah. The faces have changed, but the US is still THE economic and military power on earth. Even if we are eventually superseded, that will only mean we are number 2 (or maybe just number 1.5), not that we are done for.

-XT

Agreed.

[gonzomax]

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl31910.pdf Heres the restrictions after 1990 and Tienamen. Computers and many other goods were restricted because we thought they were a nasty and restrictive society that was aggressive and treated their people badly. They were still thought of as potential foes. But our corporations broke down the walls for money. All that cheap non union labor was just too appealing to pass up. The chance to build without environmental laws was too yummy. Now we are turning into a second class manufacturing country while they roar past us.
The arsenal of democracy is no more.

[MOIDALIZE]

@gonzomax

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl31910.pdf Heres the restrictions after 1990 and Tienamen. Computers and many other goods were restricted because we thought they were a nasty and restrictive society that was aggressive and treated their people badly. They were still thought of as potential foes. But our corporations broke down the walls for money. All that cheap non union labor was just too appealing to pass up.

Yeah, but…While I don’t think they deserve complete trust, I don’t think China is an enemy on the level of a USSR. They may be liberalizing slowly, but they are liberalizing.

And I’m mostly with you on the trade issue. I don’t think any nation on Earth has embraced free trade the way the United States has (in many ways, to our detriment). But they were never going to stay an impoverished communist nation forever. They’re an attractive market now. We should be trying to get them to open up their markets to us, to quit manipulating their currency. I think the suicides at Foxconn, and the pay raises they ushered in, is a harbinger of good things to come. It’s evidence that their workers are beginning to stand up for themselves. We should be supporting such developments, not seeking to cut them off from world markets and impoverishing them. But the only way a prosperous Chinese market is going to benefit us is if we’re still producing things that they want, and I don’t think it’s going to be managerial and consulting services.* We definitely shouldn’t be conceding all of our manufacturing to them.

*Yes, that may mean some form of “protectionism.” (:eek:)

[Try2B_Comprehensive]

@chappachula

As for the OP’s question about the decline of America’s power—I don’t think people are so upset about the world-wide issues…they are more worried about their personal issues.
It’s becoming clear that the average American’s standard of living will continue to drop, and his future is very, very insecure. Jobs can disappear overnight, and people who used to feel safe,-- whether bankers or factory workers-- now know that they might be evicted from their home tomorrow.
When you have no confidence in your personal life, it is much more scary than any abstract issues about the loss of confidence in America’s power on the world stage.

I have been employing some anger in my politics lately. No, I am not motivated by my personal issues. At least not the kind you describe. Things are actually going great for me on a personal level. Yah, I suppose I could lose my job tomorrow, but it is not the same as drinking one of BP’s Hemlock Sport Drinks ™. I’d adjust. It isn’t about America declining as a world power either. I do wonder if America is getting screwed, and about to get still more screwed, but I really don’t want to stray from the question.

I suppose it comes down to the wasted energy in disseminating a political message. It is almost certainly less efficient than coal. But anger does have some zap! to it. It can rile people up or offend them, it can generate gossip and debate. It helps to have a worthwhile cause about which to be angry. If your position is ‘show me your kitteh!’, and you are furiously angry about it, you are going to look like a jackass.

Anger can be tricky. I suppose one could work with it the way they might work with, say, ginger on the Iron Chef for a particular episode. If you need a big plume of public message, it might do the trick. Just don’t inhale it.

[Stoneburg]

@xtisme

What extreme problems are you talking about that have to do with this old style class warfare bullshit? We have RACE problems, and we have economic problems (at the moment), but what ‘extreme problems’ go along with our supposedly extreme position on some kind of psudo-spectrum?

I guess from within the fishbowl everything looks normal? Do you seriously contend that the US is an extreme nation at the end of many spectrums? Just a few examples…

• The US has the largest prison population in the world. And the highest percentage of it’s population improsoned. Extreme!

• The US military budget is bigger than the military budget of the rest of the world. On average Americans spend 20 times as much money per capita on military than other citizens. Extreme!

• The US has the highest murder rate in the western world. Extreme!

• The US pays about four times as much per capita as the average Western nation, yet get among the lowest ranked health care. And has among the lowest life expectancies. Extreme!

• Social mobility in the US is among the lowest in the western world. Extreme!

• The US has the largest income gaps on the planet if you exclude small oil nations.

Does that qualify as Extreme to you? I’m guessing… no. USA is number one! is hard to argue against.

@xtisme

Sez who? Why? Based on what? What do you think ‘material wealth’ is, and how is it used?

http://benhennig.postgrad.shef.ac.uk/docs/2009_CWIPP_Poster.pdf

@xtisme

Then our economy would collapse and the you Euro’s might actually look good for a change, ehe? If wishes were fishes, we’d all cast nets…

Wow. So you think of it as a football match or a zero sum game I guess? I don’t think one nations success is in conflict with anothers in a zero sum game.

@xtisme

Depends on your definition of happiness I suppose. As for health, I guess it depends on how important that is to you. In my own experience, a lot of American’s aren’t really all that focused on heath as a major concern…if they were, they wouldn’t eat like they do, they would exercise more and take better care of themselves. These things have little to do with health care, if that’s what you were talking about, and more to do with what’s important. I agree that more consumption isn’t going to make folks happy or make them healthy. But less consumption is unlikely to do those things either if one’s focus isn’t on being healthy. As for happiness, well, one is only guaranteed the chance to pursue it…catching it (whatever ‘it’ is for each individual) is really up to each person.

Yes. Every man for himself. It’s the law of the jungle baby!

How is that working out for you? From where I am sitting, not soo good. As evidenced above.

@xtisme

Blah blah blah. What makes YOU miserable or might kill you may have just the opposite effect on me. Again, you are projecting…you obviously don’t like the US or how things are set up here, so you are projecting your own misery around the image of if you had to suffer to live here. I’d probably feel exactly the same about your own country (whichever one that is).

Not much of an argument there just: “Blah blah blah. You’re an ugly face!” You insisting on ad hominems does not raise the quality of your posts.

[orcenio]

[

Goodwin discussed the negative political slogans of yesteryear, and remarked that McCain’s smears are “No where near as dirty as the old campaigns.” Apparently Jefferson’s opponents claimed that if he won, rape and incest would be taught in schools. Not that Jefferson was so squeaky clean himself: he said John Adams was a “howling hermaphrodite.”

](Daily Show: Historian Doris Kearns Goodwin Talks Harlots And Hermaphrodites)I recommend that you watch the the vid/interview; this stuff is hilarious.

[Dob]

IMO the reason our (US) political atmosphere is so angry and poisonous is due only to four things:

1. George W. Bush was an incompetent leader who had no presence on the world stage and refused to listen to any discourse but his own. He led us into two wars and set the stage for the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. And when he tried to defend himself or discuss with the American people he never failed to sound unsure, un-educated, and just not a world leader.

2. Obama is black.

3. Americans have no patience for results. We want things now, and if not now we want to know who we should be angry at over it.

4. The internet has shrunk the world and allowed every nutbag with an opinion to create a website, look informed, and then say the dumbest things possible. Of course then every nutbag looking to validate their own opinions then find the website and the process continues…

[XT]

@Stoneburg

Does that qualify as Extreme to you? I’m guessing… no. USA is number one! is hard to argue against.

You having a tough time arguing against the straw? Well, my heart goes out to you man.

Not much of an argument there just: “Blah blah blah. You’re an ugly face!” You insisting on ad hominems does not raise the quality of your posts

That exploding sound was my industrial strength irony meter going nova.

• The US has the largest prison population in the world. And the highest percentage of it’s population improsoned. Extreme!

• The US military budget is bigger than the military budget of the rest of the world. On average Americans spend 20 times as much money per capita on military than other citizens. Extreme!

• The US has the highest murder rate in the western world. Extreme!

• The US pays about four times as much per capita as the average Western nation, yet get among the lowest ranked health care. And has among the lowest life expectancies. Extreme!

• Social mobility in the US is among the lowest in the western world. Extreme!

• The US has the largest income gaps on the planet if you exclude small oil nations.

What’s extreme to you is not to me…and vice versa. I could probably come up with a similar list for your own country of little bullshit factoids (most of which are more ‘oid’ than ‘fact’) and type Extreme! on the end of them as well. And that would prove what, exactly?

Wow. So you think of it as a football match or a zero sum game I guess? I don’t think one nations success is in conflict with anothers in a zero sum game.

Then you don’t understand what I was saying and/or don’t have a clue what ‘zero-sum game’ actually means. Or, perhaps both, based on past experience with you.

How did that football match or zero sum game strawman comparison work out for you btw? Just curious…

Yes. Every man for himself. It’s the law of the jungle baby!

Is straw on sale in whatever country you are from? Well then, all I can say is: Extreme!

How is that working out for you? From where I am sitting, not soo good. As evidenced above.

It sucks to be living in the most powerful country on earth with the most dynamic economy…to be sure. Every day I think to myself ‘Gods, I really wish I was still living in Mexico, or, better yet, in whatever country Stoneburg is from! Wouldn’t that be great…’.

-XT

[Stoneburg]

Ok, let’s try again:

The US has the largest prison population in the world. And the highest percentage of it’s population imprisoned.
Yes or no?

The US military budget is bigger than the military budget of the rest of the world. On average Americans spend 20 times as much money per capita on military than other citizens.
Yes or no?

The US has the highest murder rate in the western world.
Yes or no?

The US pays about four times as much per capita as the average Western nation, yet get among the lowest ranked health care. And has among the lowest life expectancies.
Yes or no?

Social mobility in the US is among the lowest in the western world.
Yes or no?

The US has the largest income gaps on the planet if you exclude small oil nations.
Yes or no?

[Pleonast]

@Stoneburg

Ok, let’s try again:

The US has the largest prison population in the world. And the highest percentage of it’s population imprisoned.
Yes or no?

The US military budget is bigger than the military budget of the rest of the world. On average Americans spend 20 times as much money per capita on military than other citizens.
Yes or no?

The US has the highest murder rate in the western world.
Yes or no?

The US pays about four times as much per capita as the average Western nation, yet get among the lowest ranked health care. And has among the lowest life expectancies.
Yes or no?

Social mobility in the US is among the lowest in the western world.
Yes or no?

The US has the largest income gaps on the planet if you exclude small oil nations.
Yes or no?

You made the claims, you provide the cites.

[Stoneburg]

What if I do provide cites? What happens then? I’m assuming you don’t think the statements are factual since you asked for cites.

Will you change your mind if I provide cites?

[Stoneburg]

Oh, and so I don’t do more than needed, please tell me which you think are true and which you don’t.

[BrainGlutton]

@Stoneburg

What if I do provide cites? What happens then? I’m assuming you don’t think the statements are factual since you asked for cites.

Will you change your mind if I provide cites?

You new here? Asking for cites for factual assertions is routine in GD. You can usually find relevant cites on Wikipedia or by googling – sometimes that process will teach you you had your facts wrong, ignorance fought, it’s all good.

[Pleonast]

@Stoneburg

What if I do provide cites? What happens then? I’m assuming you don’t think the statements are factual since you asked for cites.

Will you change your mind if I provide cites?

Change my mind about what? You haven’t provided an argument for anything yet. Nor have you explained what your rambling on “redistribution of wealth” was about. You’ve simply spouted a bunch of “facts”. Even if I provisionally accept all your statements as true, I’m not sure what conclusion you expect anyone to draw.

The US has the largest prison population in the world.
Might be true. Find a cite to convince me. I believe Russia and China both have large prison populations.

And the highest percentage of it’s population imprisoned.
Might be true. Find a cite to convince me. I think Russia beats us on this. And quite possibly some small totalitarian states do as well.

The US military budget is bigger than the military budget of the rest of the world.
Very skeptical about this, but might be possible depending on exchange rates. Definitely need a cite.

On average Americans spend 20 times as much money per capita on military than other citizens.
This might be true on an absolute scale, since North Korea is so poor. Still needs a cite.

The US has the highest murder rate in the western world.
I find this unlikely. Our murder rate as gone down steadily. Places like Mexico and South Africa are probably higher.

The US pays about four times as much per capita as the average Western nation, yet get among the lowest ranked health care. And has among the lowest life expectancies.
Cite for the four times as much per capita. The rest is probably true if you restrict it to Western nations.

Social mobility in the US is among the lowest in the western world.
The term “social mobility” is rather fuzzy, so you’ll have to provide a cite for the US being lowest and defend whatever metric is used.

The US has the largest income gaps on the planet if you exclude small oil nations.
Same as “social mobility”–hard to define, so you’ll need to provide numbers and defend the metric.

[XT]

@Stoneburg

Ok, let’s try again:

Do we have too? Because I have to tell you that from my perspective it’s rather akin to pounding my head against a rather stout brick wall.

sigh…well, if we must, we must. Since you don’t seem to have gotten my point (again), let me see if I can rephrase it so you can come back and tell me that you got it all along and then ask me additional questions that make it clear you didn’t: You are making claims of the US being ‘extreme’ as if there is some sort of universal yard stick to measure us by. There isn’t. What is ‘extreme’ to you might or might not be to me (almost certainly wouldn’t be), and vice versa. I could probably come up with an equally bullshit list of things in your own country that I consider ‘extreme’, as well as distasteful.

As for your BS list:

The US has the largest prison population in the world. And the highest percentage of it’s population imprisoned.
Yes or no?

No idea mate. I suppose it depends on how you measure it (by percentage of population? Just a raw number without context?). My guess is your number is probably wrong, though I’m sure you (or whoever you get your cite for…you were planning to have a cite, correct? To me your silly assertions are more of a hijack, to be honest, but I’m sure you’ll want to back them up all the same.) can twist the numbers to make them say whatever it is you want them to say to support your BS claim. And that’s the thing…even if we do have the ‘largest prison population in the world’, so what?

(My WAG would be on North Korea or China as having the largest…but the thing is, how could you find out exactly? Neither place keeps accurate records that are publicly accessible after all).

The US military budget is bigger than the military budget of the rest of the world. On average Americans spend 20 times as much money per capita on military than other citizens.
Yes or no?

Sure we do (though it’s not as much if you look at the EU as a whole). We have to carry the water for your sorry asses over there in Euro land so you can have all those nice social programs, after all.

Again, so what? YOU might think this is an example of the US being ‘extreme’…I see it as an example of the US being the preeminent global superpower of this time, and the fact that someone in the West has to step up and carry the water.

The US has the highest murder rate in the western world.
Yes or no?

Depends on how you measure it and against what, but even if so…so what?

Social mobility in the US is among the lowest in the western world.
Yes or no?

Horse. Shit. And, again, even if it were so, how does that make us ‘extreme’? Compared to what? What’s the yardstick by which the US must be measured to determine how ‘extreme’ we are…or aren’t? Your own? Our Euro buddies? Japan? South Korea?

The US has the largest income gaps on the planet if you exclude small oil nations.
Yes or no?

Statistics can be made to dance and sing…we also have one of the highest standard of living world (hell, California alone is in the top 10 of countries in the world, standard of living wise, depending on how you measure that). Either way, so what? What yardstick do we need to measure up to on the income gap standard to fall into ‘normal’?
-XT

[BrainGlutton]

@MOIDALIZE

I think even the tea partiers are frustrated by the economy and anxious about their futures. They may not come right out and admit that, but they’ve voiced their support of government spending programs that benefit them.

In fact, I’m coming around to the view that their opposition to stimulus spending is less motivated by a concern for America’s long-term fiscal health, and more a function of an unwillingness to see more of the nation’s wealth end up in the pockets of a politically-connected elite.

@BrainGlutton

Substitute “politically powerless minorities” for “politically-connected elite” and you’re spot on.

Although, to be fair, the Tea Party is a populist movement – which means its resentments run up and down the socioeconomic ladder.

Relevant article: “Can Populism Be Liberal?”

In itself, American populism is neither left nor right. Translated into economics, Jacksonian populism spells producerism. For generations, Jacksonian populists have believed that the hardworking majority of small producers is threatened from above and below by two classes of drones: unproductive capitalists and unproductive paupers. While government promotion of public goods like defense, infrastructure and utilities that benefit all citizens is acceptable, Jacksonomics is suspicious of crony capitalists who owe their fortunes to political connections (can you spell B-A-I-L-O-U-T?). And Jacksonian producerism naturally is haunted by the nightmare of a class of the idle poor, who are capable of working but instead live off the labors of others and lack an ownership stake in the community.