Is Europe by and large becoming more prudish? A lot of my '90s era childhood was spent in Europe (Germany and Italy) and back then one of the immediate things an American noticed was how free-wheeling Europeans were with regards to nudity and the body. Explicit porn magazines would be openly displayed on supermarket shelves right above comic books; women often sunbathed topless in parks and beaches; men of all ages wore Speedos at the pool long after that was unthinkable for an American guy; toddlers often splashed around completely naked at pools; bare-breasted women were often seen on TV in prime time. Locker rooms were often open (no dividers) and saunas mixed-gender.
I’ve been back in Europe for the past few years and it struck me the other day that a lot of that is changing. Sure, it’s still less body-conscious than the US is, but it seems much more so now than it was before. You see fewer women sunbathe. German guys wear the same baggy bathing suits that Americans do. Hostels have traded in the old style open shower room for teeny shower cubicles, which can feel like showering in an airplane toilet. The adult magazines are more covered up.
Has anyone else notice this? If it’s true, any theories for why it’s happening? I think in the “old” days it was assumed that as Americans became more liberal and evolved farther from their puritanical roots they would shed their inhibitions and become more “European” about the body. And Americans have become more liberal in most things, but in this particular regard the influence seems to me to have worked in the opposite direction. Why? Is it American media? Is it the influence of the more bodily-conservative Islam in Europe?
A supplemental question, drawn from the same pool of observation: my times in Europe have mostly been the result of postings with the US military. The military, I thought, was one of the less prudish parts of US society, because of the close working and living conditions, the boot camp routine, etc. But in the gym on base the other day I noticed a sign on the locker room steam room saying that clothing was required, followed by the explicit rule: “No nudity allowed!” This struck me as strange. It’s one thing to let people wear or not wear clothes as per their comfort level, but another to insist that no nudity be allowed - in a single-sex locker room! Is there supposed to be some health or cleaning benefit? Or is the idea that people are offended by the nudity of others? Is even the military that squeamish nowadays?
I think, in the case of Europe, it’s often a case of people becoming more liberal, not less (if feminism is considered liberal.) This would account for a lot of the reduction of open display of porn etc. as a lot of feminists (by no means all) consider that stuff exploitative of women. Ditto the showers in hostels as unsafe environments for women now that there’s greater awareness of rape culture. Liberal doesn’t always mean libertine.
Although IME unisex saunas are still a Scandiwegian thing
As for the reduction in toplessness, and banana hammocks as swimwear, I have two words for you: “Skin Cancer”.
In the U.S. during the “prudish” and repressed 1950s, students usually took communal showers in Physical Education at school, and YMCA and many other indoor pools often required nudity (in all male settings). I think most young people today don’t get exposed to this type of semi-public or communal nudity as much as in the past. Fears of pedophilia have as much to do with this as prudishness. Maybe there are similar forces at work in Europe?
Nope. This has become a very big thing in Germany and I suppose in other European countries. Saunas are all over the place, and they are generally nude and mixed-gender. Even the transition areas, which can often be viewed from outdoors, encourage nudity.
Regarding women at the beach: I definitely have the same feeling.
I’m 40 and I’ve lived in Europe all my life. Women sunbathing topless at the beach was so usual in the 80s and 90s that, while I appreciated it enormously, it was not a big deal to me at all, even as a horny teenager. Something to look forward to before the holidays and, most of all, remember afterwards but definitely not something to be surprised of. Nowadays, it definitely seems to have become much less frequent. I can’t pinpoint the exact moment when it changed but it must have been in the past ten years. I was on holiday in Southern France in 2005, 2010 and 2011 and while 10 years ago it was still pretty much as I remembered it from 15-20 years before, it had become much more rare in 2010 and 2011.
As far as movies are concerned, I had nifty rule-of-thumb when I was a teenager: American movie = boobies unlikely, French movie = definitely boobies and probably much more than that especially if it’s a comedy and/or it features Sophie Marceau. The rule doesn’t really work anymore because American movies have become more explicit but also because French movies are a bit less gratuitious nowadays (I said “a bit”).
When I lived in Germany nudity was pretty much expected at the beach or the river. What we didn’t have in the 1980s was the ubiquitous presence of cameras and the internet. Maybe that’s part of the reason things are changing.
I think he meant to say: The unisex / gender-mixed thing isn’t just “Scandiwegian” anymore - it’s all over the place. Germany etc.
Me, I was recently in Helsinki, capital of the sauna-est country in the world, and finding a unisex sauna there was goddamn impossible. Out in the countryside, though - different story.
I don’t kow how much may be really prudishness per se – as mentioned there may be a rethinking of body privacy concerns due to proliferation of cameras in public places and the upcoming generations raised with a more intense awareness of body boundaries, and a change in how you deal with group situations to be more conscientious of the sensibilities of other people who may be around, rather than say “well it’s the way it is here deal with it”. (plus of course there’s always the asshats who ruin it for everyone else by misbehaving)
With film/TV it may involve a vision of “we want to be able to sell this to a worldwide audience” so your movies converge onto a level that is acceptable in as many countries as possible. Also, with much of the entertainment nudity there’s probably issues about exploitation being raised (“How come in this show there’s always a sketch about a big-boobed maid losing her top, or an old perv chasing a nurse stripped to suspenders and stockings?”). And I can’t help but imagine that when for instance some TV station in Country X started having their late night shows posted on the web with a “check it out, [Country X] shows tits on TV!” that would get a “Sure we show skin, but that’s not what we want to be known for!” reaction.
I think most of the observations of the OP are correct, for a variety of reasons : feminism for porn magazines, heightened individualism for locker rooms, pedophile scare for naked toddlers, etc… I didn’t notice TV being more prudish over here, except again wrt children (nudity is often blurred, nowadays), however. I don’t think there are less boobs at prime time.
(also regarding speedos : I don’t think speedos have ever been sexualized over here, it was just the normal bath attire, and still is in pools : so nothing to do with being more prudish, it’s simply an issue of fashion IMO).
Okay, I’m glad I’m not the only one noticing this trend. It’s too bad. To be honest I liked the less body-conscious Europe of my youth. It was kind of liberating.
Cameras everywhere - that’s a good point. I’m sure that’s made a big difference.
I’ve just come back from 3 weeks in Austria and things there seem as ever they were.
I.E. saunas remain mixed gender and nudity is mandatory.
At swimming pools the changing areas are mixed-gender and with few cubicles. Many people in the changing rooms and at outside pools will simply pop their clothes off and change into their swimming suits poolside. That means if you stare real hard you will get a flash of genitalia or boobs but it raises no eyebrows.
Showering afterwards can also be mixed gender and nudity is not uncommon. (but often the showers will be within the toilet area and so segregated)
Not much topless sunbathing but that isn’t due to prudishness as far as I can see as ladies will quite happily whip off their bikini tops in full view to change when leaving (pretty much every woman regardless of shape wears a bikini)
So it still seems pretty relaxed and non-sexual over there and that seems like a healthy attitude to have.