Are gorillas using sign language really communicating with humans?

Well, I don’t know about gorillas, but here’s an example of a dog being able to reason:

This happened in the late 1980s/early 90s. We had a dachshund (our second) named Fritz. Fritz had gotten a new bone for Christmas, which he was very protective of, especially when it came to my sister’s boyfriend. So, Fritz was in dining room chewing his bone, and my mother called him to the kitchen to get his dinner. I should mention we have a long narrow kitchen, and the dog’s food dish was not close to the dining room. Fritz started to go to his dinner, but he was about to leave his new bone alone. I said to him, “Fritz, are you just going to leave your bone there, where anyone could just take it?” I swear, Cecil, Fritz looked towards his dish, then at his bone. Then he picked up his bone, and brought it over to where his food dish was - where he could keep an eye on it, away from my sister’s bone stealing evil boyfriend. (He was actually a nice guy!)

So, anyway, I know of at least one animal that could understand language and reason! And the stories I could tell you about the cleverness of our first dachshund!

I can top that. Once our first Golden Retriever, Dylan, was rooting around in his “toybox”, obviously looking for a specific item. I say to my wife: “What’s he looking for?” (as if she could know). She replies, “Mr. Roper” (which was our cutesy name for a knotted length of rope with a ball in the middle). I say: “I think it’s downstairs.” Damned if that dog didn’t immediately stop what he was doing, go to the basement and come running triumphantly up with “Mr. Roper” in his mouth.

My wife and I were dumbfounded.

This was not something that we had taught him!!!

He knew what downstairs meant, from us saying frequently, “Do you want to go downstairs?”

But this wasn’t person-to-dog talk, this was dog overhears person-to-person talk and acts on it.

And such is the problem with nearly all discussion of “animal language with humans” - one cheery anecdote after another, including from Serious Ape Researchers. Valid blind testing and corroboration… not so much.

The unedited tapes of gorillas etc. making astonishing responses to human “talk” tend to be cherry picked out of hours of questionable interaction, or rare and attributable to other factors, as in E-DUB’s tale.

I’ve had dogs for well over forty years - intelligent, well-trained, empathic dogs - and while I could tell stories like that through several pitchers, I can’t think of a repeatable incident that was attributable to anything like “language.”

A cat we adored KNEW the phrase “tuna fish sandwich.” If my husband asked for one, Rocky was in the kitchen before I was, waiting for his treat of the liquid drained from the tuna can.

Of course this has nothing to do with gorillas or sign language.

I’ve always been of the opinion it’s useless to name a cat anything but “RRR-rrr-RRR-rrr-RRR-rrr-CHING!”

Somebody forgot to communicate the link to the column.

I’m inclined to agree with you and Cecil that many of the ape language studies have been overhyped via cherry-picked anecdotes, and the Koko study is deeply flawed by the fact that Koko’s communication is based on so much subjective interpretation by her handler.

But at the same time there must surely be no doubt that dogs have a genuine albeit limited understanding of language. They are certainly capable of understanding and responding to phrases like “go out”, “go for a walk”, or “fetch the ball”. If you said anything to my dog about going for a walk, he’d immediately get all excited and go sit by the door waiting.

I think both dog stories above are plausible in terms of the dogs picking up on familiar words and phrases. In post #1, it’s obviously not realistic to expect that Fritz understood that complex sentence, but the word “bone” may have reminded him that he’d left his toy, so he went back and got it. In post #2 it appears that Dylan understood the word “downstairs” and this prompted him to go there in his search for Mr. Roper.

I’d suggest that you read Next of Kin and draw your own conclusions. It’s a wonderful and fascinating book, and is neither lengthy nor heavy. After you’ve finished reading it, you can Google for opinion pieces on how Fouts’ work should be interpreted. You’ll find that most of what you encounter from academic sources will take one of two polar extremes, from “pure anthropomorphism, and the researcher is cherry picking for what he wants to be true,” to “yep—no question about it anymore. Chimps are sentient, and Fouts’ work proves it. Moreover, they clearly demonstrate the ability to communicate meaningfully with humans” I tend to lean towards the latter viewpoint, but still feel that are some unaddressed issues in Fouts’ work. I have to be at work in an hour, but I could write more later if you want me to.

Animals can communicate, the evidence is overwhelming. Whether or not they are using language, and the complexity of the communication is open to question.

Cecil had a sort of throwaway line in that report that I must comment on, where he said “However, all this strikes me as the equivalent of teaching a computer to beat people at chess — a neat trick, but not one that challenges fundamental notions about human vs nonhuman abilities.”

Oh, Master, how disappointing to read that from your esteemed font of wisdom!

True, several things can be said in its defense. Since there do exist some philosophers and even cognitive scientists who hold such an opinion, it cannot be said to be “wrong”. But most people who study cognition and machine intelligence would strongly disagree with it, so it’s at least wrong to state it as a point of fact rather than opinion.

The central issue revolves around just how high you must set the bar on the continuum of intelligence before it’s acceptable to declare it “human-like”. At one point around the late 50s and early 60s many were doubtful that a computer would ever play really good chess, and their reasoning was sound. It was easy to see that a computer could be programmed to follow the rules of chess, and it didn’t seem particularly challenging to evaluate the consequences of each possible move at any given board position. But there’s so much more than that to playing good chess, because the best-seeming move in the current position may turn out to be a terrible move a bit later down the line, and the search tree in doing evaluations for multiple moves grows exponentially to where it very quickly becomes computationally impossible.

Their conclusion, therefore, was that since it wouldn’t be possible for a computer to “see” more than a few moves ahead, there was no way it could ever play more than a mediocre game of chess. The question of how people do it remains a mystery; it seems that grandmasters have some kind of strategic mental picture of the game, but it’s not one that they can articulate. They can teach an average player to become a much better player, but they can never teach anyone to reach world-class levels. You either have this intangible skill or you don’t.

Yet this is precisely what the best modern chess programs like Deep Blue have achieved. And they do not – and cannot – do it with brute-force look-aheads. Part of how they do it can be broadly described as a large set of heuristics that are used to trim the search tree and to evaluate positional strengths. In a very narrow sense Cecil is right that such heuristics might be described as “tricks” to optimize the results, but this is a very misleading way of looking at it. In their totality they are more like a model of a chess master’s learnings and indefinable strategic vision of the game. It’s the end result that matters, and if we agreed in advance that such a result represents intelligence – and indeed if some people argued years ago that computers would never be able to do it for just that reason – and if computers then in fact do it, we have to acknowledge that they’ve achieved intelligence at some level.

There is a tendency among some to view any process that we can understand the inner workings of to be mechanistic and not “true” intelligence no matter how impressive its results, such as the Watson “Jeopardy” champion. But this is just wrong, and it reflects what Marvin Minsky once said was the phenomenon that “when you explain, you explain away”. Someone from decades past would have no doubt at all that Deep Blue was genuinely intelligent, but today, some people reject that view simply because they more or less understand how it works. But the reality is that there is a widely held theory in cognitive science that even human intelligence at its core derives from computational processes, and a whole field in computer science called computational intelligence which seeks to advance machine intelligence through techniques that are sometimes closely analogous to human cognition.

My Ex was hearing impaired and a Govt certified Sign language interpreter. She watched a video on Koko and her handlers and she said the “interpretations” of sentences were bogus. Yes, Koko did sign words. But to call them sentences is a huge stretch.

In the Deaf and Hard of Hearing community, “hearing impaired” is considered an offensive term. NAD - Community and Culture – Frequently Asked Questions

One of the closer username/post correspondences I’ve ever seen on this board. Not coincidental, I assume :smiley:

"This term is no longer accepted by most in the community but was at one time preferred, largely because it was viewed as politically correct. To declare oneself or another person as deaf or blind, for example, was considered somewhat bold, rude, or impolite. At that time, it was thought better to use the word “impaired” along with “visually,” “hearing,” “mobility,” and so on. “Hearing-impaired” was a well-meaning term that is not accepted or used by many deaf and hard of hearing people."

:rolleyes: It was picked as they complained about “deaf”, and so “hearing impaired” was picked. Now they like "deaf’ and dont like “hearing impaired”. Which is more accurate as my ex wasn’t deaf.

So far as I can tell, the capital-D Deaf community is offended by the mere existence of the sense of hearing. What do the majority of (lower-case d) deaf people think about the term?

Exactly this. Communication in discrete packets, whether it’s barking at a door or using a PECS board, is one thing. Stringing together communication elements into anything like sentences and structured thought conveyance is another, and I am not aware of a single, unambiguous case of animal communication at that level.

At best, the ape communication so far resembles exchanges with severely autistic children - one immediate desire or thought at a time can be expressed, but with little or no connection between such expressions.

I wonder how analogous it is to feral humans, who aren’t exposed to language at all in early childhood? They can still learn words later, after being rescued, but they don’t have any sort of grasp of grammar.

To elaborate, a common observation of “communication” between “talking animals” and a trainer might involve an exchange.

If the animal “said” something that made sense, the trainer claimed that was intelligence.

If the animal “said” otherwise, the trainer would say, “Oh, she’s such a kidder!”, or “She likes to rhyme instead of giving a direct answer!”, using an invalid or nonsensical response as evidence of even higher intelligence.

Of the animal said something “wrong,” the trainer would prompt her for more responses, until one of the responses made sense, in some form or another.

So no matter how the “conversation” went, it was claimed to be an intelligent exchange. It makes me doubt there was any intelligence on the trainer’s side; more like wishful thinking.

It occurs to me that there *must *be some way to facilitate communication with animals. :rolleyes:

I’ve found a pocket full of biscuits works wonders with most dogs. Cats – not so much.