I would have liked to keep this a semi-factual question in GQ, but I figured it would not work. Here it goes:
Why are BMW and Mercedes seen as luxury cars? Are they only luxury because they cost more and conspicuous consumption makes them a viable business model or are they somewhat worth more on technical grounds?
This is less true today than it was years ago, but everyone knew that a Toyota mid-sized family sedan was worth more than a roughly equivalent GM vehicle because of quality, reliability, etc.
Are German luxury cars “worth more” in a holistic sense or are they only “worth more” because people want to be seen driving around an expensive German luxury car?
Overall, I would prefer to keep the comments mostly on the somewhat informed side. If the only thing you know about cars is where to put the key, please hold your opinions till the thread has become a legitimate flame-fest.
Just to kick it off, I thought I’d take a look purely at deprecation, if you want to have a general view of “worth” vs “price”.
BMW has 3 cars in the top 10 with 2 in the top 6 in this MSN report (that’s including the Mini Cooper).
Toyota has 6 (including Scion and Lexus) with 4 in the top 6
Honda acura is at nr 8.
And that concludes the top 10. Not bad for BMW, though the Toyota Prius is at the #1 spot.
I imagine the numbers are a bit different around here in the Netherlands, but AFAIK Mercedes cars aren’t really renowned for their resale value anyway except for the really top models.
The big three German automakers are consistently in the bottom of reliability measures at Consumer Reports. For BMW and Mercedes, it seems that the quality does not match the price, and similar offerings by makers like Lexus and Infiniti give more bang for the buck (it does seem that the luxury Japanese brands are also less reliable than their parent makers, however). Of course, most purchasers are unlikely to be buying for reliability, and can likely afford to repair.
An IMHO answer on Volkswagen is that they’ve decided that a simple electronic switch is not worth it, and thus must add several layers of complexity, all susceptible to failure. Add to that expensive repairs, as a simple task such as changing a tire requires multiple specialized tools. Yes, I’m bitter.
The interesting thing about luxury cars in general: the rich (generally) do not buy used cars-it isn’t a classy thing for them.
Hence, used luxury cars drop in value-they are probably worth 10% of their original price (at 5-6 years). The people who buy them are usually middle class poseurs-who have NO idea of the minefields they have entered-as an example, an ECC module for a Jaguar XJ6 can top $3500! The huge operatng/repair costs of these barges is a shock to the buyers-which is why the massive depreciation takes place.
Take the oddball 'Maybach" (M-B’s luxury brand)-these things stickered at $360,000! I saw a used on on Ebay-they were asking $80,000. I doubt very much that the “old money” rich buys these cars-old Chevys are more their style.
I haven’t registered for Consumer Reports, but BMW and Volkswagens are not at the bottom of any reliability measures I’ve seen (Mercedes is).
Of course, in terms of satisfaction I can imagine them having low ratings because of the high expectations people still have for these brands.
To the OP, there are a few factors that haven’t come up yet:
[ul]
[li]If you believe Top Gear, a lot of features that we now take for granted e.g. ABS, climate control, were found first on the 5 series. This says nothing about the current 5 series, but may be a part in their reputation.[/li][li]It used to be, if you wanted the most powerful executive car, then you had to go for a top-rung beamer / merc. Not sure if this is still true. [/li][li]They tend to be good-looking, though obviously this is subjective[/li][li]Ultimately, because of the price / reputation, they keep the Jones’ off your back…[/li][/ul]
Maybe not the tires but yes on the brake rotors on the VW. What the hell purpose does that #5 triple square bolt serve and why couldn’t it have been a T27 like on the rest of the car? My VW and Audi techs complain about specialty tools but they’ve got nothing on Mercedes, each tech has a whole 30" drawer at minimum (usually two) filled with Mercedes specialty tools and they get used a lot.
As for BMW, they don’t call it Bring Money With for nothing! You can find 10 year old 7 Series for jsut a couple grand, there’s a reason for that, the trans and suspension problems can cost many thousands to fix, don’t even talk about swapping ECU’s.
-MikeG, Snap On Tool Rep.
…yeah more tools equals more sales but frankly Id rather sell more of a fewer amount.
What is mostly being criticized is reliability. In terms of performance, most reviews of BMW sedans at least tend to place them at or near the top of their classes ( I’m a couple years out of date on current reviews, but such was the case not long ago ). Then there are further semi-intangibles like materials and egonomics and they tend to fair well there as well.
The question is whether expensive maintenance and ( purportedly ) increasing reliability issues are worth tolerating for top-notch performance and ( to some ) good looks. For me, the answer is no. However for folks with more disposable income, the occasional pricey repair might not be much of an issue.
Also consider that while, in the USA, BMW and Mercedes are marketed as luxury brands, this is not strictly the case in Germany. BMW in the United States can only be purchased at certain “luxury” trim levels, whereas in Germany there are lower end vehicles available. This has begun to change, but still holds somewhat true. For example, in Germany you will see most BMWs are 318, which isn’t sold in the USA. Likewise the 1 series seems to be available in the US, but not commonly seen (at least by me).
FWIW, I worked with a fellow in Germany who was a total German car snob. He had a hierarchy of cars that had Mercedes and BMW at the top (for “normal” cars) but allowed that Audi had made huge improvements and was trending to the top.
Plural of anecdote is not is not data, but consider this.
Back in 1998 I helped setup a track test of 6 cars for a side by side comparison.
the cars were
Volvo S70
BMW 3 series (328i if memory serves)
MBZ C class
Infinity J30 (I30?, the one that had the rear end that looked like a '48 Packard)
Lexus E250
Honda Accord V-6
Some interesting things came out of the test.
The Infinity was the fastest off the line, but the slowest car to 60 mph.
The European cars kick the living shit out of the Japanese cars in handling, braking and over all balance.
Example: The brakes on the Lexus were gone after the second lap. As in complete fade.
So if you intend to drive them, BMW and Mercedes make great cars. In addition, BMW 3 series cars are just damn fun to drive. If you are not a car person, this might not mean squat to you. for someone that is into cars, this is an awesome selling point. BMW has been advertising that they the staffers at Car and Driver magazine buy more 3 Series than any other model car. Assuming this is true, it isn’t because they get the best gas mileage.
You do not need a special tool to change a New Beetle headlight. Done it many times. (There is a short in the harness of most New Beetles of the 1995-2000ish era. )
And the Mercedes thing… they used to have an individually designed screw for each location in the car… made at the factory. That was one of the things my dad got rid of when he was working with them. You don’t wanna know. Oh, god. and yeah, M-B has QC issues.
I agree-the handling and braking on German cars is topnotch. However, the control systems are overly complicated (the M-B S500 owner’s manual runs to 760 pages). Plus, the airconditioning on most German makes is second rate-they don’t have good cooling capacity. The real problem (as I have said) is that these cars have very complicated electronic systems, and there have been shocking quality lapses (Bosch made over 5 million defective ignition coil packs for Audi cars). These things failed left and right, and if you drove the cars for any appreciable time (with a bad coil) you likely burned out that catalytic converter ($2500-$3000 replacement), and screwed up the exhaust valves.
German cars are OK, if you follow the factory mainatinence TO THE LETTER, and deal with problems right away. There is a reason that they depreciate so rapidly, and it is usually deferred maintainence leading to expensive problems. The BMW 750 that you see on the lot for $5000-it probably needs $7000 in repairs.
So a car like that is no bargain-it is a money pit that will swallow your wallet.
I agree with the other posters that said that BMW is a driver’s car. This is apparent starting with the combinations of equipment that are available for test drive. This was a few years ago, but I could test drive a BWM 335xi (twin tubo with AWD) with a manual transmission, but Audi and Infiniti did not have V6 sedans with manual transmissions on the lot, and in fact you could not get an AWD Infiniti with a manual transmission. M-B only offers manuals on a few models and does not stock them. M-B definitely goes for more of a luxury presentation.
After I drove the 335xi I had to have it. It handled like no other car I have other driven, including Audis, Infinitis, M-B, etc. It really gets down to a personal choice. Some people like value and reliability, some people like luxury options, and some people like to be able to drive like an idiot in virtually any weather conditions. It’s your choice.
On the newer body style you need a long extension and a 5mm socket, also a long screw driver to press down a lever. They’re a real pain. Seems like the old style was prone to breaking that hook off tho.
Luxury is not the same as reliability. Rolex watches are not as reliable as a Timex quartz, and don’t keep time as accuately. A fancy high-end handbag may be more fragile than a $80 Sears handbag. A $1000 pool cue won’t play any better than a $100 Dufferin cue, and will be more fragile because of all the inlays and ornamentation.
So what makes a product a luxury product? Any number of things such as fit and finish, expensive materials, custom design, high engineering costs because of innovation, etc.
Look at the body work on a BMW. The gaps between panels may be smaller. The paint finish may be better. The leather in the interior will be a higher grade than the leather in a Chevy. The switchgear will feel more precise. The instrument panel may look nicer because of the use of metal indicators instead of plastic, and engraved lettering instead of plastic silk-screened backgrounds. And so it goes.
One of the ways cheap cars keep their costs down is to use as many common components as possible. So for example, unless you have a car with every available feature, your dash may have blanks where controls would have gone has you purchased the option. At some level of luxury this is unacceptable so a customdash would be made for every model, driving up tooling costs.
Higher end cars may optmize performance by using expensive materials. For example, unsprung weight kills handling, so more expensive cars may use more aluminum and magnesium for control arms and such. Weight distribution may be optimized by using expensive carbon fiber hoods or roofs.
Something interesting (to me anyway) is that in North America BMW and Mercedes seem to automatically mean ‘luxury’ where that is not the case here in the UK. Mercedes do the A Class which is a fairly utilitarian people carrier. I have a BMW 120d which is a diesel hatchback about the same size as a VW Golf or Ford Focus. Both the BMW and Merc are considered a step up from the Fords or VWs but not ‘luxury’.
German cars? I’d put American and Asian cars up against them any day. Straight from the factory (albeit special order) the 2011 Mustang destroyed the BMW M3 in every test category recently. The Nissan GTR set records at the Nurburgring, as did the 2011 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe, and the Corvette ZR1.
The point is that typical American cars are not designed to be driven at the limit as are many German cars. If you want an American or Asian car that is, you can buy it and pocket the money you save over the German counter part.
If you want status and a little feeling of prestige, go German.
If you want to be stopped and questioned about your car every damn time you buy gas, go to the store, stop at a stop sign, buy a 2010 Dodge Challenger Hemi.