:rolleyes:
Oh, I think that you do have one- you’ve had it all along.
There is a ton of evidence that men have much stronger libidos than women.
But that is a side issue, since the big problem is how it’s expressed. It wouldn’t matter if women had 10x the sexual energy as men (well, aside from massive overpopulation and a boon to sex toy manufacturers) since it would be expressed in typically female ways as shaped by evolutionary history. They wouldn’t start to rape and kill men en masse, or develop their own equivalent porn, strip clubs, or prostitution. They wouldn’t leer at men in the streets or follow them around and call them names and tell them to smile or whatever, or worship virginal males or male beauty. That’s man’s domain and except for some of the smaller and more basic issues I very much doubt you could solve them with consciousness raising. Do you?
Hahaha! Bravo.
But srsly. I want a word that I can restrict use of. 
Cite?
Why do you assume that these things are “man’s domain”? Why do you think that these things are genetically hard-coded into men and not women? Do you have any evidence for that beyond your own assumptions? Any at all? I gave a reasonable alternative hypothesis based around social feedback–why do you think that is unreasonable?
As for the second question–first of all, I don’t think porn needs to be ‘solved’. But yes, I think that the rates of rape and prostitution (and strip clubs) can be significantly curbed with social movements. The emphasis on virginity as well, and also the leering and telling them to smile. Obviously, you don’t. Why not?
What nonsense is this? Be offended by whatever you want. And feel free to politely ask people not to use whatever word you like.
This is a good overview of many different lines of evidence. You can also try reading about anorgasmia and female sexual dysfunction in general. It’s shocking how many women have little to no ability to orgasm, even if they wanted to. But libido by itself is a red herring, it’s more the negative expressions of it which matter for this discussion.
Because it makes perfect sense from a sexual selection viewpoint why men would seek high numbers of casual, varied sexual partners, while women would do the exact opposite. It holds true for pretty much every mammal (heck, animal) you can study.
As for why men are so visually engaged in terms of sex I’ve read many ideas (usually relating to hidden ovulation or something to do with walking upright and losing body hair) but that’s just guesswork. But the fact of it being true is just taken for granted because that’s old news. That’s a simple matter of having subjects watch erotica or showing them pictures of nude people and measuring blood flow to their genitalia, or scanning their brain, or asking them how they felt.
Oh, they’re not, in general. Just comparing 2010 America to 1950s America the difference is pretty stark and that was done with consciousness raising. More of that would be great. I’m just saying that on some of these core biological issues we’re gonna run into a wall if we haven’t already, and we’re probably only going to make improvements on the margins (street harassment, silly business dress, the role of professional women, etc.).
Well, me neither. I love porn. But I’m a man. I can intellectually understand why feminists would want to find a way to end porn, but I like it too much to actually agree and want to work towards that end (to be fair, not all feminists want to end porn – many are OK with it – but when I read a fem. blog about this subject it tends to turn into a giant flaming trainwreck).
Because as long as it’s a free society men will actively seek these things and there will probably always be enough women to make a market for it. Especially as societies everywhere become more secular. Even in horribly repressive, totalitarian puritan societies before the advent of modern birth control there’s prostitution and peep shows all over the place. In a modern democratic society like ours? Forget it. You’d have to lace the water with depressants or something. In Europe they’re expanding and legalizing it, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened over here someday.
Fair enough. But there’s much variation within the sexes–just because men may statistically have higher sex drives doesn’t mean that any individual man does (I, for example, do not), and vice versa. Furthermore, assuming that a particular person has a strong or weak sex drive based only on their gender is sexism in it’s rawest form–discriminating generalizations based on one small fact.
And saying that someone is a slave to their sex drive (as you implied) is ridiculous. If they cannot control their sex drive enough to rape someone or some-such, it is their fault, and they are responsible for it.
Do you have actual evidence, or just suppositions based on other animals?
Every generation, people talk about how we’ve “reached a wall” or “hit a plateau”, or “invented everything”. I don’t buy it.
Really? You’re male? Huh. Wouldn’t have guessed.
Anyway, it’s not as if women don’t have porn. They make porn–it’s just that female porn tends to be packaged and branded differently than male porn. Have you ever heard of a Yaoi Fangirl? Because I could give you some links if you’re curious…
So…wait…women want to do it…men want to do it…what’s the problem here?
It’s important to keep in mind the consenting adult rule here. It’s sexist to assume a woman is a housewife if she’s married, or to force her to stay in the kitchen–BUT it’s not sexist for two married adults to agree on the wife staying at home and the man going out and working if that’s what they want. Similar arguments, I think, could be made for prostitution and strip clubs. Not the exact same arguments, mind–as there would probably have to be a regulatory agency involved to prevent unsanitary conditions or exploited women–but similar arguments.
It’s not the fault of men. It’s not the fault of women. Get over the blame game that only invites useless anger. It’s all about the assumptions of gender attributes, how they might be wrong, and also how they might be right.
BS. There are indeed cultures where women leer at men in the streets and follow them around. Heck, our own culture is changing towards that. Most of my mid-20s female friends are basically out looking for sex with hot guys with absolutely no eye towards marriage or reproduction. Have they somehow subverted millions of years of biology? Of course not- the culture changed such that sex is no longer some huge taboo, and they no longer need to bargain their virginity for financial security.
There are also cultures where male beauty is held in high regard. Perhaps the most famous example is the Wodaabe beauty pageants where men put on elaborate make up and jewelry and perform elaborate dances in order to attract women. Women, both single and unhappily married, watch and make their choice. From there they have the option of entering a marriage, which may of course be annulled the next year if the woman find someone more fetching!
Female virginity is also not a universally desirable trait. In west African Mbororo culture, a woman is considered a more desirable marriage partner if she already has a couple of children. After all, what better way to know she’s fertile!
Why is this culture different? Probably because in this culture a woman is expected to support all of her children by producing products to sell at the market, and get only minimal financial assistance from their husbands. It’s in cultures where women do not support themselves that the whole virginity thing (assuring the kids are all yours) gets important. Now, think for a minute about the way that sexual patterns and childrearing expectations have changed in our own society.
Indeed, throughout the world you see all kinds of variations on gender roles.
The real reason why we see one pattern so often is most likely not biology, but rather agriculture. Agricultural societies tend to follow certain patterns, probably because paternity becomes important to figuring out who inherits what land. Even then there are variation- such as in traditional Tibet, where a woman marries a man and all of his brothers. This makes sense in an area with so little fertile land that dividing up family plots would be fatal.
Our modern “man works, woman stays at home” paradigm is not even as old as farmers, where women worked the fields just as hard and men spent as much time at home as the women. Our modern paradigm comes from the late industrial revolution. Not surprisingly, when that particular set of cultural circumstances changed, our sexual patterns have changed.
Looks like I screwed up the quote function on my last post…
You know us women and computers…
Bitch implied female. Words change meaning all the time and bitch is definitely a much more all-purpose swear word today than it used to be. It will still mostly be pointed at a woman, but saying it’s use always implies sexism is much too black and white.
And it was said that The Hurt Locker only won because the director was female by a woman. Look, there are fewer female directors than male directors, so of course it’s going to take a long time to find a movie by a female director to win the Best Picture. It’s simple math.
As for Judi Dench being British, what does that have to do with her ability to win awards in America? And Meryl Streep played Ed Harris’ friend in The Hours. According to the story, they dated in college, making them the same age. Streep does play the mother of Claire Danes’ character, who would have been 23 in 2001 to Streep’s 51. A completely realistic mother-daughter pairing.
So none of the points you just made have any basis in reality. Maybe big, bad Hollywood isn’t so big and bad after all?
Actually, “males display, females choose” is a pretty universal feature of mate selection in a world where eggs are more valuable than sperm. It’s just that the forms of display look different: here, a good college degree (a signal of intelligence and complex thinking) and good looks; there, good looks and good dancing (a signal of intelligence and complex coordination).
Since the 70s and the age of disco? Please, please, please don’t make me link pictures of the Bee Gees, Travolta in Saturday Night Fever and ABBA as what passed for sexual icons back then. That disco was an ugly thing is hardly proof of anything anyway and is best left forgotten.
Except when it isn’t. Throughout of history and around the world there are countless situations where forced marriage, child marriages, sex slavery, concubinage, pure arranged marriages and other “the woman has no say” situations are common.
And I’m sure you could come up with some cute’n’clever evolutionary biology based reason for that as well.
We do have instincts at work in us, but those drives can get warped into any number of shapes based on the local situation and local culture. For every custom you can find another culture with the opposite custom. This points to the fact that it’s not so quick and easy to draw straight lines from evolution to modern behavior.
I took a gender class in college once that talked about the 4 traits of masculinity. Male homosexuality seems to violate rules 1, 3 & 4. So you not only have the social rejection of being a homosexual, but the traits of masculinity are violated.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JQP/is_373/ai_n7584532/
1 No Sissy Stuff. Masculinity is based on the relentless repudiation of the feminine.
2 Be a Big Wheel. Masculinity is measured by the size of your paycheck, and marked by wealth, power and status. As a US bumper sticker put it: ‘He who has the most toys when he dies, wins.’
3 Be a Sturdy Oak. What makes a man a man is that he is reliable in a crisis. And what makes him reliable in a crisis is that he resembles an inanimate object. A rock, a pillar, a tree.
4 Give 'em Hell. Exude an aura of daring and aggression. Take risks; live life on the edge.
Whenever the issue of sexual abuse comes up in a debate either here, on other boards, or in real life, I always try and point out that about 90% of sexual abuse is never reported and the vast majority of it happens underground. Many people have a strong desire for a 1 strike policy on sexual abuse for those who get caught, but really aren’t considering the 90% who aren’t caught, or how such a draconian policy would affect peoples willingness to come forward with their own abuse histories or fear of becoming an abuser.
But I know that issue has bothered me because instead of doing the painful, embarrassing work of addressing the massive public health crisis of sexual abuse that happens in our society (it contributes to endless problems with mental health, physical health, parenting when the abuse victim grows up, poor relationships, poor work performance, etc) we want to crucify the tiny minority who are caught and convicted, then pat ourselves on the back as if that actually solves the problem.
On the issue of racism though, the Harvard Implicit association test shows about 80% of whites and 50% of blacks have negative attitudes towards black people (according to Malcolm Gladwell). So when people do scream ‘racist’ at someone who is openly and stereotypically racist, it also makes people deny their own subtle racial biases.
We try to deal with our problems (racism, sexual abuse) by demonizing a small group of people, then pretend that if we use those people as sacrificial lambs, those complex problems will go away. And they do not. If anything it just makes people less willing to be honest with themselves and each other for fear of becoming a sacrificial lamb themselves.
Going back to what I said, I count that I made seven points in that post, and you here have chosen to dispute only four. Even if you succeeded in proving those four completely wrong, it doesn’t mean that “none of the points you just made have any basis in reality.” At the risk of sounding snide, “It’s simple math.”
Anyway, my resposes:
I never said the word “bitch” should be off-limits to say. I agree the term is becoming more generic as the language changes. Words do that. Are you aware that the word “nice” at first implied loose sexual morals? Different story today.
But if, as you say, “bitch” is still often aimed at women, does that not denote an assumed attitude of how a woman should be? That a woman should be unassertive and compliant, and she is a bitch if she is not? Used this way, the word demonstrate a lingering resentment of a women who speaks up for herself.
Examine the attitude is all that I am saying. I am not saying purge the language of the word “bitch”.
There are more and more women directors etc, and I expect this trend to continue. But the comments about how this woman won the Oscar (good work Sigourney Weaver!) shows the resentment against their progress is still alive even among women themselves.
No one argues that Judi Dench isn’t talented, not even the Hollywood elite. My point is that the British seem to have less of an obsession with youth and good looks than we do, at least in their media.
I was wrong about “The Hours”. It’s been awhile since I’ve seen that movie and got the characters mixed up. So I’ll concede this point to you.
Still, I remember thinking, “There’s no way that Merle Streep is the mom.”
51 years old doesn’t look like it used to, I guess.
I meant none of your points about Hollywood was based on reality, which I thought was obvious.
To use an old phrase, “I know it when I see it.” Bitch has a completely fluid definition that changes depending upon on the teller and the tellee. It’s impossible to pigeonhole it into meaning an assertive and non-compliant woman because it means so many different things to so many different people.
To use a fresh example, there has been a discussion in the recent Amazing Race threads over whether the team of Carol and Brandy are “bitches” or just misunderstood. Through their vile treatment of other teams (and each other), the consensus seems to be “bitches”. It has nothing to do with them being assertive and non-compliant (because they’re not) and everything to do with the fact that they’re not very nice people. When you’re free with language (as this place is), that can be all it takes to be a bitch.
Or you could be Meredith Brooks, someone who decided that maybe Bitch isn’t something to be ashamed of.
Resentment against their progress? Sigourney Weaver was complaining that the film she was in got passed over because the Academy wanted to be PC. It’s most likely sour grapes because Weaver is also a hugely outspoken critic of the “no good roles for women over 40” brigade. Basically, she doesn’t like it when she thinks people hide behind their gender to make up for their own shortcomings.
Ever heard of Page 3 Girls? The British just go about their obsession with youth in a different way.
I agree 100% with everything you stated here. On the racism point I actually recently did an anti-racism training seminar in which I discussed the Implicit Association Tests as well as the scapegoating of racists in American society.
And as far as the sexual abuse issue goes, it’s a deeply personal issue for me. I was chronically abused by my adopted father between the ages of 12 and 17. When the truth came out, I was the one marginalized, blamed, ridiculed, and ignored. My mother actually said to me, ‘‘This is your fault. I blame you.’’ The truth got out when I was 17; she stayed married to him for another 5 years, and when she divorced it was for reasons other than the fact he had molested me.
I have tried to make sense of that experience for years, but when I began to look to society and how it generally views child molesters it all became clear. My adopted father is not the monster reflected in the media and the minds of most people when they think of child molesters. He was a normal guy, very well-respected in his business, great sense of humor, a martial artist, NPR-listening, excellent cook and talented artist. He was the first father I’d ever had who took an interest in my life, came to my band and choir concerts, and fulfilled that role of an invested father. And he molested me.
Maybe he did it out of a sense of impotence and powerlessness. We were both being abused by my mother and her violent outbursts; this was a bonding point for us. Maybe he got confused. I really think he thought he was in love with me. He told me he wished he was married to me and not my mother.
People really find these two notions of ‘‘normal person’’ and ‘‘child abuser’’ incongruent; they can’t process it. I understand that because I couldn’t process it either, not at first. I didn’t recognize it as abuse until after I was out of that situation. And I still struggle with it.
I don’t know if he really cared about me or if he was just being manipulative, I don’t know. It’s really hard to accept that one of the most important relationships in your life is a lie. The reality is that sexual abuse, the way it really plays out, what motivates it, what it looks like, how it affects victims, is far more complex than the drama on television. We need to stop villainizing and start trying to understand.
The reason I am talking about it here is because this is what the oppression of women looks like in our society. Shit, I was BORN because of the oppression of women–my conception best as I understand it happened while my mother was passed out drunk at a teen party. She married the guy, her alcoholic boyfriend at the time, and he terrorized her for a year until one day when he locked her in the bedroom and cut the phone line she managed to crawl out the 2nd-story window of our apartment with me in one arm and escape. She was 18, a single mother on food stamps, a college student in mechanical engineering. All of the anguish and confusion and rage my mother felt was a direct result of her own abuse as a child, the negation of her own feelings, and her resentment toward me as a symbol of the helplessness she felt as a single parent. He wasn’t even the first child molester she married. And so many times when she tried to come to terms with it, she would look at me, so confused, and say, ‘‘I don’t understand. It can’t be abuse. That’s just what childhood is like, isn’t it? Are you telling me what happened to me wasn’t normal?’’
Her own victimization became my victimization. Thank god I had the presence of mind to break the conspiracy of silence and ensure that this cycle will not continue.
To say to me that women are equal in this society when I know to the core of my soul what the oppression of women looks and feels like is just baffling to me. As if any man would know more than I do about my own experience as a woman.
olivesmarch4th, I’m sorry for what happened to you, but you have to realize that what you just wrote is an incredibly extreme situation and doesn’t represent anything so far as typical society goes right?