This is a question for the males out there. Perhaps you can answer something I’ve wondered about for some time.
I am a female. I know this because I have boobs, a va-jay jay, and ovaries. They have done everything they were put there for - have children, feed them, etc. No matter what I do, think, or wear I never doubt for one instance that I’m a female because of the above mentioned female body parts.
From my observation of males, it doesn’t seem to work that way. They appear to be constantly worried that some action on their part - wearing a pink shirt, enjoying poetry, talking baby talk to a baby, going to a chick flick - will invalidate their maleness.
If males don’t join a book group to discuss Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood, then any individual person who does that won’t be a male regardless of their chromosomal make-up or body parts.
Why do men constantly need to do things that confirm that they are male? Why isn’t the fact they’ve got a penis and testicles good enough? I mean, if you have said equipment what the heck else do you need?
The question isn’t about men being male. It’s about them being masculine. Masculinity, for many men in the society you live in, is such a strong aspect of self-identity for them that it becomes (irrationally, IMNSHO) tied to their sex-identity. Saying “you’re not a real man” means “you are not masculine enough to be included in our group that contains all males, and that all males should strive to be part of”. Participating in certain behaviors will make a man “unmasculine” in certain societies (your example: a man wearing a pink shirt in the Midwest) and therefore, not what a male should be, according to this standard that many men (and women) uphold.
This is why I have a boyfriend (who is very male, which makes me happy ) who is part of that group that rejects the notion of masculinity as ideal for males. He’s someone who actually considers this notion of masculinity-as-ideal-for-all-males to be something not worth pursuing or paying attention to. I love him for that, and wish there were more people who could see the broader picture of masculinity and how socially constructed it is.
I want my life to be about more than simply owning a knob.
edit: A Male IS a male. A typical male doesn’t go to chic flicks because he doesn’t like them. He doesn’t like poetry or cooing at babies either. he feels stupid doing it.
It’s not like we are pretending to be Males. we ARE males :rolleyes:
Not a male but here are my thoughts. I think we’re at a really weird place for men and their perceptions of masculinity. In the past, these things weren’t considered automatically suspect but most people didn’t know anything about gays and gay culture plus men were defined by their roles as breadwinners, distinct from the role of women as homemakers. At the point when society in general became aware of gays but not entirely comfortable with them, the time that men were unsure of their role in a more egalitarian society, many men sorta “over-corrected”. Now that many people are more comfortable with gay men and most young adults have only known a world where many women work outside of the home, I see attitudes changing. The younger guys I see seem to be more comfortable with their masculinity and not as worried about mixing up gender roles.
With all due respect, I am a male. I like goils. I truly like goils. I guess I’m atypical. I go to some chick flicks. I have been known to write, and enjoy poetry. I absolutely positively adore babies. Always have.
I think that owning a knob ( gross turn of phrase… ) is not the end all and be all. It just means I can fuck. It doesn’t make me a man. It makes me a male.
Yep, still male. I’ve willingly gone to movies generally identified as “chick flicks” because they sounded interesting. I have been known to coo and make funny faces at babies and toddlers just to watch their reaction. Poetry…well, there’s some I like and some I don’t like, just like everything else.
Of course, I also have no interest in sports, either watching or playing, so maybe I don’t actually qualify as a “typical male”. :rolleyes:
To be fair, and more serious about your post, I think you’re painting with a very wide brush here.
I’ve also observed clusters of wimmenfolk talking about masculinely-dressed women in a derogatory manner. It’s not just males who are uncomfortable with bending gender roles as established by mainstream consensus.
Maybe it’s wrong to perpetuate a stereotype, but it pisses me off when people act and talk like they are phantoms! There ARE typically male things to do and like. And there ARE typical males who do and like them.
ETA: And in an attempt to get the train back on the rails - My point is that if there is a typical male, then he likes typical male things because he’s a typical male, not because he feels a need to pretend to be one or to broadcast that he is…
Ferrinstance I don’t go to Action films to advertise that I am Male. I go to them because I happen to like them, and I happen to dislike your typical Chick flick.
Meh. This male likes and has some chick flicks in the vid library, but also likes Full Metal Jacket and most Clint Eastwood films. This male has a female kidlet, and has made stupid faces and goofy noises at other kidlets. I also like birds, kitties, and have tended a garden, at times. I know what color ties go with what color shirts and suits, and can reattach a button or fix a hole in my sox all by myself. I’m a pretty good cook, too. That being said, I concur with the sentiments expressed by Mr. Pacino in Scent of a Woman.
I admit to the broad brush, and the clumsy sterotypes. I’ve never heard a woman question her gender based on some action on her part. But I hear guys say:
“I don’t do X because men don’t do X, so if I want to be a man I can’t do X.” all the time. Perhaps they mean “I don’t like X so I"m not going to do it.” but that’s not what they say.
I don’t think it’s about confirming that they are male. I think it’s about confirming that they are “men”, whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean. I’m not really into that scene myself. I’ve got the boyparts portion of it and I couldn’t care less about the rest, except for the harassment. I’m not disinterested about the harassment but it doesn’t make me want to play on their team.
I read and re-read Edna St. Vincent Millay; I own several collections of her works and Marcie gave me a new one for Christmas. In my view, she is the Greatest Poet Ever.
I wear pink shirts whenever and wherever it pleases me and always have.
I hate nearly all sports, especially at the professional level.
I have no chest hair and a very light beard.
I have a penis. I have testicles. I consider myself to be a man.
I am 6’1", 220 pounds, fit and quite attractive depending on what I wear. I single-handedly fought off two armed felons in 1999 that went to maximum security prison because of it.
OTOH, I was raised by my mother, I have a wife who is an executive vice-president, and two daughters that I absolutely adore and most of my friends are female.
I am androgynous and will only associate with people that are as well whether they are male or female. Overly masculine men disgust me as do overly feminine females. In real life, this tends to translates into androgynous females flocking to me which happens over and over and lots of them are extremely attractive because that is a niche that most people don’t even recognize as existing.
From your examples “wearing a pink shirt, enjoying poetry, talking baby talk to a baby, going to a chick flick” are disgusting behaviors to me even though I am not overly masculine. They would be the same thing as a female not liking watching sports while the guys get drunk and bang heads together at every opportunity. Dislike for those behaviors on either side is perfectly understandable. There is no reason to assume that any Nancy-Boy Non-Whipped male should like those behaviors.
Would you like to hang around guys that are into drunken amateur boxing?
) who is part of that group that rejects the notion of masculinity as ideal for males. He’s someone who actually considers this notion of masculinity-as-ideal-for-all-males to be something not worth pursuing or paying attention to. I love him for that, and wish there were more people who could see the broader picture of masculinity and how socially constructed it is.