Um, what the fuck are you talking about? I never hear guys worry about that shit out loud. That’s the kind of shit you hear guys worrying about on TV sitcoms. Watch much?
Having said that, I also have to point out that lotsa guys just don’t like doing those things. Do you assume that those activities, by virtue of the fact that women do them, are “obviously” good things to do, and that guys secretly harbor a desire to do them, but are afraid to do so? Because, hey, I’m perfectly happy if the Ya-Ya Sisterhood keeps their secrets to themselves.
On a more serious note, I suggest that societal roles for males have not expanded anywheres near as much as the roles for women, and that men’s restricted role is approved of by both men and women. If you’re a man and you spend a lot of time doing the stuff that you suggest, you’re gonna wind up with a lot of woman friends that are sure you’re gonna be a fabulous husband…for someone else.
It’s not like we spend a lot of time thinking about these things. We don’t have a rulebook we carry around so we can check whether or not we’re allowed to do something. It’s just that men typically behave in the way that men typically behave. And by doing so, make these kinds of behavior typical of men. If, for example, most men liked to watch chick flicks, they wouldn’t be considered chick flicks.
You actually have a perverted view of men. It sounds like you are unfit for your perceived sex role and it is causing cognitive dissonance that you really, really need to address in yourself. BTW, no one likes poetry anymore. If it can’t stand up to music then it it just crap, masturbatory, random prose. Even if you did a spell and turned yourself into a lesbian, most sex objects would shun the subjects that you seem to love. Cecil himself just posted an article on Matriarchal Societies and the never really existed. The 70’s are over.
My parents’ generation had very strict expectations of the two sexes. Men did not change diapers. Rosie the Riveter was all well and good during the war and all, but once the men came back she was expected to go back to the kitchen.
My previous job I was one of very, very few women, and I heard a lot of “guy talk” over the cubicle walls. Some of it was what you would expect, but I was pleasantly surprised one day to hear two of them (the guys, not the cubicle walls) talking about their new babies. One of the guys was a large, almost scary man, an NRA member, rumored to carry knives hidden in his boots, and had an awful temper. Nonetheless, he and another fellow were talking about how sweet it was to have your baby daughter fall asleep on your chest, and the wonderful smell they have. Definitely not the sort of conversation I would have expected to hear my father have. So I think things have changed for the better, and that men today are more free to do and experience things that their fathers and grandfathers could not.
it’s a holdover from the cavemen days where simply having a penis is not enough. if you’re squirmish about killing, hunting and all the other manly man activities, your only other job opportunities would be to suckle a babe and go pick fruits.
Having a penis isn’t good enough because there’s an overwhelming majority of women who don’t find it to be enough. Traditionally, women expect a shitload more out of a man than to be able to get her pregnant.
I have some thoughts on this topic, but I’m a little leery of posting in these touchy-feely type threads. I try to confine my posts to military history, football, and working on cars.
A male poster asking why a vagina isn’t enough, and why millions of women get fake nails, fake hair, fake teeth, and fake body parts to reinforce their femininity would get skewered within minutes. It seems the men and women jacked into the matr–internet have a perverted view of the opposite sex. I suppose if I spent all day reading news stories and pittings about the fucked up things done around the world, I’d hate men or women too. But the reality is I experience almost nothing negative as the result of the opposite sex these days, and do, in fact, love the women around me for who they are.
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I’ve been a man all my life and don’t remember myself, or any other man, ever saying that seriously. Perhaps you’re getting your information about men from television shows.
I am very comfortable with my “maleness” and don’t give it too much thought. I don’t feel like I have to prove it too anyone regardless of what movie I watch, the color of my shirt, or if I eat quiche. ( I hate quiche but not because I’m a man)
I don’t actually know any guys/men/he-men/big-strong-masculine-types that have any trouble cooing at babies. That sounds more like the caricature of masculinity portrayed by Jim Belushi in According to Jim than any real male human.
Poetry is a mixed bag for some guys. A guy that does not like Kipling is probably just someone who borrowed his idea of masculinity from some older teen during a formative period and never grew out of it. (A guy who does not like Shel Silverstein is an idiot. Some guys might like Browning (either one) and some might not, based on personal preferences.)
“Chick Flicks” are also a mixed bag with good ones (Thelma and Louise) and dumb ones (Terms of Endearment) that should be judged on their own merit, not on what some fourteen year old told one’s twelve year old self what one was allowed to like.
The caricature of masculinity that appears to be the target of the OP is not even universal among men, anyway–not even universal among white, Northern European males if we go back in time. Malory has all his Knights of the Round Table falling on each others’ necks and kissing or weeping at one time or another, and his characters were a darned sight more masculine than Tennyson’s crowd.
I’m a stay at home Dad. Perhaps not an entirely typical homemaker parent, since our son has special needs, and I spend lots of my time managing his care and talking with bureaucrats and even going to meetings, and perhaps less time cooking & cleaning. But I still stay at home, take him to the park, drive him to activities and such. And do you know who has the most hostile reactions to my occupation? who is most uncomfortable with this? Other stay at home Moms, that’s who, especially those I meet at the playground or at gymnastics. Just about all the guys (especially fathers) have an enthusiastic, encouraging, and often a bit whistful / slightly envious reaction when I tell them. Many women (around half) react like I told them I am forty and still living in my parent’s basement playing video games all day (not that there’s anything wrong with that) . I get a ton of challenging gazes at playgrounds and gymnastics, suggesting something like “WTF are you doing here?” Not to mention the cold shoulders and rebuffed conversational overtures. I used to be shy, but now I can make good conversation with anyone. I am, IMNSHO, *good *at it. I’m non-threatening, casual, not flirty, happy, comfortable and I listen well. I have held up lines at the grocery store because cashiers start telling me their life story. But at kid-centered events during weekdays, it often seems I might as well be wearing an SS uniform as far as most other Moms are concerned. The ironic and very frustrating thing is that when I am encountered being a Dad during evenings, weekends and holidays, then, and only then, am I showered with happy approving smiles from the same demographic. AArgh! It is to scream…
As far as the Man thing goes, my very traditional Dad brought me up to believe that not all boys grow up to be men. To be a Man meant to be emotionally tough enough to handle whatever life throws at you, smart and resourceful enough to know what to do then, strong enough to do it, and without your emotions getting the better of you, brave enough to not let you fear stop you, and wise enough to know what was really important. Being able to fight, knowing sports, the usual man stuff, was only part of a skill set you sometimes needed to persevere and succeed; that skill set also included cooking & sewing, for example. It was more about being self sufficient than about who sewed your buttons.
That was what being a Man was about for me. Right until my wife pointed out that these were also very good things for girls to aspire to. She had me there. Dad always felt that women were precious, delicate creatures (read: less strong & capable) and so less should be expected of them, and they should be protected, cared for and cherished, hence his applications of the above virtues to the masculine side. Now I think of what my Dad taught me as being how to be a good adult human, rather than just being a Man.
I think that the guys who most worry about being masculine are those who are not sure what it really means to be a man, so they turn to sitcoms and pop culture for answers, and implement them fanatically.
That being said, I also think that there are many differences between men and women that are deeper than just the influence of culture. Evolutionary psychology has offered many intriguing hypotheses. eg. fascination with ball sports stemming from hunter’s chase reflex, aggressiveness being selected for because it brings better hunting success, etc. etc. Like many posters have said above, though, those are just differences. They are not Real-Man-Club ™ membership rules, they are not a requirement, and they have many exceptions.
I love children, especially infants more than anything. I don’t have any infants, so I end up trying to spend time with other people’s infants. I write poetry. I cook. I don’t play sports, I don’t work on cars, or do yard work.
I don’t really doubt my masculinity. However, many women do.
That might be a small clue about why guys feel that being male is something that needs to be proven.
Why isn’t having a penis good enough?
Because they get all floppy* without a man attached.
*have you ever noticed that no word actually works here. Messy, floppy, useless. . . having a man attached doesn’t actually cure that.
I know what she’s talking about. When I read the thread, I thought, yeah, why is that? And assumed that men would have a reason, not that they would deny it happens. OK, I have a theory: maybe men talk about that stuff in front of other women and maybe they don’t discuss it in front of men. They say things like this, using the pink shirt as an example I have actually heard (though thankfully it is less common these days): “A pink shirt? Men – real men – don’t wear pink shirts. C’mon.” Perhaps you would say that they really mean, “I am a real man, and therefore I don’t like pink shirts,” not “If I wear a pink shirt, people might think I’m not a real man.” I don’t know. I’ve certainly gotten the sense that they mean the latter.
Agree completely. As far as gender roles go, approved by men and women, I think we have WAY more latitude than you all do.
I think she is getting somewhat skewered. Also, I think the two are not really analogous. No one gets a pedicure or fake breasts or fake hair because “Otherwise people will start thinking I’m a man,” – they get them, to generalize a bit, to feel like a *more attractive * female. But the femaleness itself was never in question, or even a subject of jokes. (As a response to the “But we’re just joking” comments.)
But anyway, could it not be a little of everything? Sometimes men say these things not because they are threatened or bothered, but just as a comment on the fact that society gives so many conflicting messages about what it means to be a “man.” And sometimes they say something that sounds to us like “People will think I’m not a real man” but what they mean is “I can’t stand chick flicks.”
And sometimes they joke to mask their true insecurity about how masculine they are and are perceived. Interesting thread!
If I had a nickel for every time I heard a man say–or write–"…and then, man, I screamed like a little girl"–okay, I wouldn’t be rich, but I’d have a dollar or so.
What is this “scream like a little girl” shit? I know little girls scream. So do little boys. I used to work across the street from a grade school and they all screamed like banshees while running and chasing each other and climbing things.
But when a grown man screams, he always “screams like a little girl.”
Come on, guys. You all do it on occasion. You might as well own up to it. Scream like a man!
