Are men responsible for women's happiness or unhappiness?

[Kimstu]

@Jay_Z

I also mowed the lawn, shoveled and blew the driveway, raked the leaves. I cleaned out the gutters until she went behind my back and paid for gutter guards I did not want. She wanted to pay for other people to do these things. I wanted to do them myself to be and feel useful.

We also lived close to my work so I could come home on lunch hour and give stroller rides to the kids. Which I did basically every day.

Also took the kids on library and other outings on weekends. And more.

I’m not dissing any of this, and I totally agree that spouses need to be honest with each other about their expectations for dividing up domestic responsibilities, and that if one spouse doesn’t express any dissatisfaction or desire for change until well after the fact, that’s not really fair to the other spouse.

That said, there is often a tendency when talking about traditionally gendered domestic tasks to overlook disparities in the sheer amount of time they take. Traditionally “male” tasks like mowing the lawn, shoveling the driveway, raking the leaves, cleaning gutters, taking the kids to the library on weekends, etc., typically average out to maybe a few hours a week. Traditionally “female” tasks like food shopping, cooking and serving meals, menu planning, cleaning toilets, changing diapers, soothing childish tantrums and resolving disputes, making appointments, keeping appointments, helping kids take care of their toys and rooms and clothes use, etc., typically average out to three to six hours per day. At least.

And that’s not counting situations like sitting up with a sick kid or helping a kid with a special project, etc., which also tend to be “mommy” tasks. Even a daily time-specific “daddy” task like reading the bedtime story or giving the lunch-hour stroller ride doesn’t come close to the traditional “mommy task” time investment on a daily basis.

Now, I am casting no aspersions on your particular situation, and I haven’t forgotten what you’ve said about your wife being a SAHM and having a cleaning service come in, etc. etc. I am not implying in any way that you were slacking in your domestic duties or that your wife was justified in any way in being dissatisfied with the marriage. I wasn’t there and I can’t know, so no accusations here.

I’m just pointing out that there is a general tendency to talk about traditionally gendered “mommy tasks” and “daddy tasks” as though they represent similar levels of effort and time investment in domestic responsibilities. But when you look at the actual schedule accounting involved, the disparities can be pretty huge.

[msmith537]

@thorny_locust

@msmith537

anecdotally, I think women tend to have a much more idealized picture of what their life should be like. And it’s usually some amalgamation of Sheryl Sandberg and Carrie Bradshaw.

Anectodally, I don’t know any women who expect a life remotely like that; and I doubt I know any who would want one.

@msmith537

At the very least, I rarely hear men talking about marriage as something they expect to make them “happy” in the same fairy tale manner that women do.

What kind of fairy tales? Bluebeard?

If what you mean by “fairy tale manner” is what I think you mean: I’ve never heard grown women talk about marriage like that. Young girls, sometimes. They get fed a lot of sanitized fairy tales, after all.

I did some research. It turns out other people aren’t you and actually know people you don’t.

Maybe it’s a New York thing, but I know plenty of women who are the “lean in” have it all type with the high powered career, with the husband with the even higher powered career. Or they want to be a SAHM where the nanny takes care of the kids while they sip wine with their girlfriends. Where those marriages seem to get into trouble is when the husband maybe isn’t as ambitious as they wanted or can’t or won’t keep them in the style they want to be accustomed to.

That certainly sounds like the OP’s ex, the way he describes her. Granted we only hear one side, but she sounds like a lazy gold-digger who just wants to sit around the house while other people wait on her hand and foot. Then she gets bored while the OP is off working to pay for all that so she sleeps with some other dude.

You can’t be responsible for someone else’s happiness. Like what is the OP supposed to do? Work AND do housework AND raise the kids (or hire a team of people to do all this stuff) AND entertain his lazy wife so she never gets bored?

[thorny_locust]

@msmith537

It turns out other people aren’t you and actually know people you don’t.

Interesting. That’s precisely what I was trying to say to you.

It’s perfectly possible that the OP’s ex was like that, though we haven’t seen her side of the story, which makes it hard to tell. The problem, IMO, is that the OP isn’t saying just ‘my ex was like that’ or even ‘some women are like that, and for that matter so are some men’; the problem is that the OP appears to be asking whether the unhappiness of women in general, in marriages in general, is the fault of men in general: and to be assuming that this is a useful question to apply to his specific individual relationships with specific individual women.

[msmith537]

So there’s an old saying “happy wife, happy life”. Which is to say, generally, yeah, I think there is a perception that the man’s job is to put the wife’s needs ahead of everything else (if we know what’s good for us). But I also think that is a good way to drive yourself miserable, trying to keep up with all their ever changing and often contradictory bullshit.

In reality, I think both people individually need to feel they are in a relationship where they are respected and share the same goals and all that shit.

[nearwildheaven]

Those of you who have been there and done that can confirm or deny this, but I have long heard that unless there’s a really horrible situation (primarily abuse), it is NOT a good idea for men to file for divorce if they have children, especially if they are pre-school or even pre-teen, because this can be interpreted as abandonment.

[DSeid]

@thorny_locust

I think you should stop thinking in terms of men in general and women in general, and think instead in terms of specific individuals.

Yet there are group differences that are highly significant and important. It would be willfully naive to ignore them.

We are socialized differently, no matter how our families of origin raised us, unavoidably we are exposed to different messages and expectations that we either internalize or react against. We live within societies that have expectations spoken and unspoken. Every individual is unique of course and recognition of gender tendencies in LTRs is valid.

That said I think on both directions love means that we want to do what we can so that the object of our love is as happy as is possible. We are responsible not for the result but we are responsible for the honest effort. As a husband of 37 years plus I readily admit that there are times neither of us have tried hard enough. And that we have each been upset because we have felt the other was not trying hard enough. Or was trying but horribly missing the mark.

But I recognize that minimally socioculturally my bar for feeling satisfied is likely lower than hers.

[RickJay]

@nearwildheaven

Those of you who have been there and done that can confirm or deny this, but I have long heard that unless there’s a really horrible situation (primarily abuse), it is NOT a good idea for men to file for divorce if they have children, especially if they are pre-school or even pre-teen, because this can be interpreted as abandonment.

This is a legal matter and would vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but while IANAL, this sounds dubious.

[puzzlegal]

Just a gentle mod note: This thread is about one man’s unhappy relationships and how he might find happier ones in the future. While there are no doubt differences, on average, between men and women, and while it’s possible that recognizing and reacting to some of those may help the OP, it is not necessary to post about how horrible men are, how horrible women are, how women are all gold diggers, how men ignore their partner’s needs, etc.

“Bad relationship” threads often veer into misogyny and misandry, but both of those are unpleasant to onlookers, and are not appropriate for this message board.

Thanks.

[puzzlegal]

(posting as a poster, not a mod)

@RickJay

This is a legal matter and would vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but while IANAL, this sounds dubious.

I assumed he meant the KIDS might interpret it as abandonment, not that the law might.

[Slithy_Tove]

If the OP is still checking in, and is open to the possibility that what worked for me might work for himself:

This world can be a beautiful place and you can have a great time here. Not as great as it can be when you’re sharing it with a good partner, if you’re made like that as I am; but there’s no progress if you squander this time as wasted because you’re not coupled up.

You just put yourself into your own best place and eventually one of those women who’s looking for a man to be nice to comes into your life. (Yes, they really are out there) And then you match or exceed her efforts.

[nearwildheaven]

I’m talking about starting divorce proceedings, not moving out, which are two VERY different things.

My own personal observation over the years is that when a couple divorces, or even splits up, it was usually a mutual decision, both parties were dissatisfied, and in most cases both of them also did things to contribute to the relationship’s demise, even if it’s as simply as being incompatible.

[DSeid]

@Jay_Z

So my honest opinion, as a man, is that in seeking out a peer woman for a LTR, she is more likely to be more unhappy over time than I am. Should I care, or is that her issue, beyond what can be addressed in a mutually respectful relationship?

Noting the mod’s sage comment and responding to the op explicitly. Statistics are well and good and interesting. But every individual event is just that event and what that outcome was was 100% what happened there.

If you love someone you will care. If your spouse hurts you will want to help them not hurt and being unable to help their hurt (as can often be the case) will cause you pain. It is not a “should”; it is IMHO part and parcel of what is within a long term love relationship. Oh there will be angry moments when you feel that the other does not care about your happiness and you react accordingly (lord knows my wife and have had plenty of those), but being in a LTR in which each does not generally feels that the other cares whether or not they are happy, and does not feel each are making an effort to help each other be happy, seems sad to me. Success is less the point than the continued effort.

Yes many relationships end in divorce or separation, and yes perhaps women in general want more out of the relationship to call it good. Maybe. But many relationships do last. Not with either always happy but each at least still caring about trying to help the other be happy. For many of us that’s enough.

[MandaJo]

One issue is that people are often attracted to a rype, and they don’t even realize it. We often have very deep preconceptions about how a LTR partner for us should look/act. When “looking”, we don’t seriously consider people that don’t match that profile. You barely see them. Its like lots of people have a pretty small set of colors and styles they wear, maybe qith no conscious awareness. So that’s all they see when they shop.

All this is to say is that people often keep dating their “type” and then project those features to a whole gender. This can be baffling to someone with a different type, because it doesn’t reflect their experiences at all.

Some people seem to have a “type” that they honestly, actively dislike. Like, a man’s idea of “woman” is “silly, delicate, pretty, fun”, and when he’s dating, he only really sees women that fit that mold. He thinks all women are like that, because all the female individuals he knows who aren’t all those things register as people, but not datable women, in the same way he’d never buy a green shirt. He knows other people do, but it never occurs to him. That’s fine if he likes silly, delicate, pretty, fun women, but if he actually low key despises them for their vanity and superficiality, he’s setting himself up for serial misery.

This isn’t just a man thing. I’ve seen women like this, too. People limit them selves to an option they don’t like. It seems more common with people with very strong gender identity who have pretty limited interactions with the other gender. They seem to often have more rigid, arbitrary gender expectations.

[Jay_Z]

@MandaJo

One issue is that people are often attracted to a rype, and they don’t even realize it. We often have very deep preconceptions about how a LTR partner for us should look/act. When “looking”, we don’t seriously consider people that don’t match that profile. You barely see them. Its like lots of people have a pretty small set of colors and styles they wear, maybe qith no conscious awareness. So that’s all they see when they shop.

All this is to say is that people often keep dating their “type” and then project those features to a whole gender. This can be baffling to someone with a different type, because it doesn’t reflect their experiences at all.

Thank you for this.

I’m not sure I am personally too rigid, maybe more the opposite. The ex GF called me an enigma. Part of that might have been my limitations in what I wanted to bring forward. But honestly our connection could have been better. She was a better match on values than the ex was, but there was definitely a wavelength issue. We got to the same place, but by completely different routes. I think that’s an issue.

Connection wasn’t great with the ex wife either, regardless of what she did at the end. We even took a test at pre-marriage counselling for my church. It wasn’t a good match, and I never saw the results because she ripped them up in front of me and never let me see them. Which says a lot.

I do think that men getting swallowed up by women’s relationship requirements is a pattern one way or another. But I don’t want to focus on that in this post.

One thing I focus on too much is initial enthusiasm. I don’t think it means all that much. It’s been a crutch for me due to my own background. That sort of enthusiasm is hard to muster for me, so I’ve relied on my partners for that.

I met my ex speed dating. There was another woman there that I wish I would have selected, she wound up selecting me but I didn’t select her. She was just more reserved, shyer I suppose. She was indicating interest, just at a lower volume. And I couldn’t see it because of the crutch I use in needing obvious initial enthusiasm.

I have plenty of relationship skills, but if I don’t pick better situations, better connections, it’s not going to matter. I am trying to reassess now so I don’t just go through a series of bad connections.

[msmith537]

@puzzlegal

(posting as a poster, not a mod)

@RickJay

This is a legal matter and would vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but while IANAL, this sounds dubious.

I assumed he meant the KIDS might interpret it as abandonment, not that the law might.

Kids, don’t think of it as I’m abandoning you and your mom. Think of it like instead of living with you or spending time doing stuff together, I am going to live somewhere else and do other things with other people.

[The_wind_of_my_soul]

@MandaJo

One issue is that people are often attracted to a rype, and they don’t even realize it. We often have very deep preconceptions about how a LTR partner for us should look/act. When “looking”, we don’t seriously consider people that don’t match that profile. You barely see them. Its like lots of people have a pretty small set of colors and styles they wear, maybe qith no conscious awareness. So that’s all they see when they shop.

All this is to say is that people often keep dating their “type” and then project those features to a whole gender. This can be baffling to someone with a different type, because it doesn’t reflect their experiences at all.

I found your whole post extremely insightful. I just want to add that in addition to projecting the features of your “type” onto an entire gender, I think people can have a tendency to resent the very qualities of the type they’re attracted to. For example, I am attracted to quiet men, but then when my boyfriend would not speak to me during a long car ride I’d get annoyed. A good friend of mine is attracted to agreeable men who go along with her plans, but then gets annoyed when her husband doesn’t make more of the plans. Sometimes we need to remember that the “bad” qualities we see in another person aren’t really bad at all, just another layer of complexity to a quality that we appreciate in the person.

[raspberry_hunter]

@Jay_Z

Let me expand. I was SPECIFICALLY accused of not emptying the dishwasher enough and not doing enough laundry. Those were not the only ways I helped out.

Ah, okay. Sorry, I misread your post – thanks for the clarification.

@Kimstu

I’m just pointing out that there is a general tendency to talk about traditionally gendered “mommy tasks” and “daddy tasks” as though they represent similar levels of effort and time investment in domestic responsibilities. But when you look at the actual schedule accounting involved, the disparities can be pretty huge.

Yeah. And almost every case of divorce I know of had one partner who was taking on almost all of the stereotypically-“mommy tasks” (and that partner was not always the woman) and feeling like their partner did not understand how much more work they were doing. Not saying that this was what was wrong with the OP’s marriage, but it does seem to be pretty common, at least in my experience.

[raspberry_hunter]

@Jay_Z

We even took a test at pre-marriage counselling for my church. It wasn’t a good match, and I never saw the results because she ripped them up in front of me and never let me see them. Which says a lot.

Wow, yeah, that’s… not good. I don’t really understand how she got away with that? (At least, I assume it was a little like the pre-marriage church counseling we did, which also had a test, and the whole point of the counseling was to talk about the results of the test and how we agreed/disagreed in various areas. If one partner had ripped up the test and not let the other partner see it, Pastor would have very strongly discouraged us from getting married at all, and probably wouldn’t have let us get married in that church.)

It does seem like @MandaJo has a point there (as she always does; she’s very wise). You seem to be saying that you are short-term attracted specifically to enthusiasm, but that may not have a strong correlation (and could even be anti-correlated) to the long-term qualities you value in a long-term relationship. I think a lot of people have a tension between what they are attracted to short-term (especially since it might be formed by childhood events, etc.) and what would actually be good for them long-term, especially when they haven’t had a lot of previous relationships. I was pretty fortunate (though it didn’t seem that way at the time) to have a couple of relationships that taught me what superficial qualities not to value (enthusiasm being one of them, actually!) and which qualities were important to me, before I met the guy who’s now my husband.

[DesertDog]

@raspberry_hunter

And almost every case of divorce I know of had one partner who was taking on almost all of the stereotypically-“mommy tasks” (and that partner was not always the woman) and feeling like their partner did not understand how much more work they were doing.

I remember a joke when I was a kid and being “a good provider” meant carting home a whole mastodon about a husband coming home from work to find the breakfast dishes still on the table, a full laundry hamper, and his wife lounging in her dressing gown with a box of chocolates and a movie-star magazine. “What the hell’s happened here?”

“You’ve been wondering what I do around the house all day. Today I didn’t do it.”

[SciFiSam]

Men are only responsible for their wife’s happiness as much as women are for their husband’s - they’re not in theory, because your own happiness is your own responsibility, but we are not islands, and the way we act affects other people. There’s nothing really gendered about that.

OP, you can have a happy relationship in the future if you still want to. Perhaps give it a bit of a longer break to get to know yourself as a single person first, and figure out what makes you happy first.

As to women statistically being the ones to start divorce proceedings, my guess would be that that’s because women do a lot more of the emotional labour and life admin in serious, long-term relationships. Most of my friends are in long-term, pretty happy, relationships, and there’s always one person who does more of the keeping up with birthdays, buying presents, arranging social occasions, etc, and more serious stuff like elderly care.

With straight couples it’s nearly always the woman who does all that. (There are exceptions, of course). So naturally the woman will be the one who actually puts the papers in for a divorce, even if it’s an amicable divorce.

The lesbian divorce rate is a real thing, and as a lesbian I know that women tend to move in together and commit a lot earlier than gay men do - there is some truth in the “second date is a u-haul” stereotype. Though it seems to be becoming less true these days, and in some ways it’s difficult to compare stats.

I’m not sure it’s really relevant when considering why women who are married to men are more likely to be the ones to instigate divorce proceedings.