Are Mods allowed to ignore Rules violations?

[Giraffe]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

Giraffe: You cannot get away here with Pit actions. This is NOT the Pit. When I called you on the Hitler comment for insulting the mods, your defense is that it’s not insulting the mods, it’s insulting Carol Stream?

Not at all. My defense was (and is) that I was trying to point out what was wrong with the OP and similar past OPs by this poster with what I thought was obviously silly hyperbole. We’ve always allowed people to make analogous arguments to show why someone’s logic is flawed. For example, this thread. It’s an absolute classic, and filled with hyperbolic analogies.

[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven]
So, your “defense” just makes the argument stronger that I was right in admonishing you in the first place. And now, you get a second one for directly insulting another poster. Neither comment are appropriate for ATMB. And, because of your past history, when you pull a stunt like that, you set the tone for others to leap in on Carol. It stops NOW.
[/QUOTE]
I’m confused as to what my second warning is for, exactly. I don’t see where I directly insulted anyone. I said Carol’s OP was loaded and that IMO she henpecks the mods, neither of which are personal insults.

Look, I’ll accept that my attempt at humor was ill-conceived and tone deaf, so if you want to give me a warning for that, I won’t argue. I’ve pretty much given up trying to be funny in ATMB. It doesn’t…go well.

But as I’ve commented before, I think having discussions on mod actions in ATMB is a huge mistake, doubly so if you’re going to clamp down so hard that people are afraid to say anything negative, even in your defense. Maybe it’s personal, and it’s just my posts you’re reading as nastier than they’re intended, but I still think it sets a bad precedent. People should be able to comment on the merits of others’ complaints, IMO.

Now, COOL IT. When next I read this thread, if there are continued insults (however disgusised) and snide comments, I will start issuing warnings.

I thought I was already given at least one official warning for this thread, maybe two, is that correct? Or were these just “mod notes”? (The infraction text sounded like a warning.)

[Squink]

@Liberal

Second, @Squink
…
Again, that is only my understanding, and someone will be along shortly to correct me if I’m wrong.

That’s my understanding as well. Can’t say I like it. I can still say I don’t like it. So I will. If Frank doesn’t like that, he can pit me.

[DrDeth]

@Caught_Work

As long as you’re not a real doctor of death, no.

No, my sig is:

[zut]

@Giraffe

That post was a joke, playing off of Carol’s incredibly loaded OP and constant henpecking of the mods.

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

Giraffe: You cannot get away here with Pit actions. This is NOT the Pit. When I called you on the Hitler comment for insulting the mods, your defense is that it’s not insulting the mods, it’s insulting Carol Stream? So, your “defense” just makes the argument stronger that I was right in admonishing you in the first place. And now, you get a second one for directly insulting another poster. Neither comment are appropriate for ATMB. And, because of your past history, when you pull a stunt like that, you set the tone for others to leap in on Carol. It stops NOW.

Neither calling Carol’s OP “loaded” nor calling her actions “henpecking” is an insult. Moreover, neither is directed toward the poster, but rather toward her actions.

[Liberal]

@The_Tao_s_Revenge

I was kind of vague the first time so I’ll try again. Would you please show where people actually insulted that poster?

No, sorry, I won’t. And the reason I won’t is that what constitutes an insult can be either vague or subjective in nature. (ETA: See Zut’s post just above this one.) A pile-on, for example, is itself an insult, in my opinion, taking the definition of “insult” from Merriam-Webster: to treat with insolence, indignity, or contempt.

And so, if I were to link to, say — let me just pick a card — Guin’s post, which consisted of a very sarcastic, "Nooooo, not Carol. She’d never do a thing like that [wanting to punish posters just for their views]! ", there is nothing to prevent you from declaring, “Why, that’s not an insult; that’s just a bit of fun poking, like a friend elbowing a friend, while they watch the ugly girl in the cafe eat spaghetti.” It still is treating Carol Stream with insolence, indignity, or contempt in my opinion.

There is therefore no point in linking you to posts (like Giraffe explaining that he didn’t mean to compare Hitler to the mods, but only to Carol) because in your view they might not be insults. But what really matters most, I think, is how Carol herself has perceived the posts. And since she described this as “the I Hate Carol Stream thread”, it goes without saying that she has felt insulted. That is NOT to say that every time a poster claims to have been insulted that they in fact have, but merely that in this place (ATMB) and against the OP (Carol Stream), there have been a steady stream of potshots from the very beginning, as Zoe pointed out in the thread’s 11th post. Things derailed into a discussion about PMs until Guin’s post number 33 — another sideswipe at Carol Stream.

And so, it would do no good to point out any post or even any trend because you could simply disagree, and declare that these have all been innocent in-jokes or board interplay. But given the nearly irrational and almost universal dislike for Carol Stream’s political views, and given that that dislike carries over from forum to forum — she can barely post without a smartass remark or some quasi-clever comeuppance — I think the onus is upon us, as members, to give her space in a place like this, where she is asking the mods a specific question just like we all are supposed to do. Granted, it might be a question that we feel is unnecessary, but such feelings are completely irrelevant.

[Inner_Stickler]

@Liberal

First of all, kudos and accolades to Dex for clamping down on the insults (both direct and disguised) against Stream. Aside from being out of place, as he pointed out, they make the thread harder to read.

I’m finding the hardest part about reading this thread is finding these insults. I haven’t found one yet. I will say that I feel the administration is not engaging in honest dialogue with the posters as long as these threads remain ATMB.

EDIT: Never mind. Apparently we’re not sharing the insults we find.

[Cat_Whisperer]

So, it would be wrong of me to hypothetically say that this thread is some of Carol’s better work?

[SmartAleq]

And likewise it would be wrong of me to speculate that should Carol ever elect to visit the Pacific Northwest that she might find environs of the Fremont to be an exceptionally salubrious clime for one of her disposition?

[DudleyGarrett]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

These insults have been “allowed” because I was busy with Real Life and have not been on the boards all day.

Now, GODDAM IT PAY ATTENTION!
This is ATMB. This is NOT the Pit. These personal insults are OUT OF PLACE here.

Giraffe: You cannot get away here with Pit actions. This is NOT the Pit. When I called you on the Hitler comment for insulting the mods, your defense is that it’s not insulting the mods, it’s insulting Carol Stream? So, your “defense” just makes the argument stronger that I was right in admonishing you in the first place. And now, you get a second one for directly insulting another poster. Neither comment are appropriate for ATMB. And, because of your past history, when you pull a stunt like that, you set the tone for others to leap in on Carol. It stops NOW.

Now, COOL IT. When next I read this thread, if there are continued insults (however disgusised) and snide comments, I will start issuing warnings.

As another posted said, perhaps you need to take a break from the boards.

[Una_Persson]

@SmartAleq

And likewise it would be wrong of me to speculate that should Carol ever elect to visit the Pacific Northwest that she might find environs of the Fremont to be an exceptionally salubrious clime for one of her disposition?

Yeah, it probably would be wrong. But what would I know?

[Frank]

@Squink

Whichever Frank. I’m certain you can pick the most ridiculous one for yourself.

I asked, “Why?” and gave some options. If not of those fit, you can always answer the question: Why?

[Liberal]

@Cat_Whisperer

So, it would be wrong of me to hypothetically say that this thread is some of Carol’s better work?

Why must you say anything at all about Carol? This thread isn’t about Carol; it is about a rules question.

[Guinastasia]

Lib, I’ve seen you do the same thing, when you seem to be thinking that people are somehow after you because of your views. EVERYONE here does it. So let’s not go playing, “Not ME.”

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

@DudleyGarrett

As another posted said, perhaps you need to take a break from the boards.

I need to take a vacation? I’ve pretty much had the last two months on vacation, thanks very much, and it was very relaxing. I think you meant the opposite: people who insist on using personal insults outside the Pit; people who insist on pretending that what used to happen in the Pit is OK in ATMB; people who think “she’s henpecking you” isn’t a personal insult; people who aren’t listening to the mods… they’re the ones who need a vacation from the boards.

I can only repeat myself so often. If using 20-point font doesn’t seem to make it sink in, then Official Warnings are about to descend. We’ve been extremely lenient and extremely patient during this transition from mod-criticisms being in the Pit to being in ATMB. That leniency is now over. I see very few comments directed at what Carol Stream said and I see LOTS of comments about her/his motivation and patterns of behavior. Those are personal insults. They stop now.

@Liberal

But given the nearly irrational and almost universal dislike for Carol Stream’s political views, and given that that dislike carries over from forum to forum — she can barely post without a smartass remark or some quasi-clever comeuppance — I think the onus is upon us, as members, to give her space in a place like this, where she is asking the mods a specific question just like we all are supposed to do. Granted, it might be a question that we feel is unnecessary, but such feelings are completely irrelevant.

Bingo! Nail on head, thanks, Liberal. That’s the whole point of having such discussions in ATMB – regardless of baggage elsewhere, the point should be discussed on its own merits.

In the Pit, if you dislike something someone said two years ago, if you dislike their posting style, if you dislike their political views or personality, you can attack them. Outside the Pit, you discuss the content of their posts, based on its merits and not on who the poster is.

Giraffe: I had originally issued an Official Warning. Based on our PMs, I have rescinded the Official part. Consider my comments to be “friendly reminders,” admonitions to pull back rather than Official Warnings that go on the record. That clarify it?

@Liberal

We are allowed to complain about mod actions. But our complaints must go here in ATMB. And they must be civil. We can say, for example, “Would you please stop closing threads just so you can have the last word?”. But we cannot say, “What the hell is stuck up your ass that makes you close threads just so you can have the last word?”.

I’ve said it over and often, I’m gettting tired of repeating myself: If you want to vent, rant, express outraged indignation, go to the Pit. If you want to Pit me as poster [del]or moderator[del] go right ahead, you have my permission. I will not read it. I will not respond. [del]If you go to the Pit and [insult me as poster] [del]“What the hell is stuck up your ass that makes you close threads just so you can have the last word?”[/del] then go to the Pit and say it. I won’t see it, and it won’t bother me in the least.

On the other hand, fi you want to ask about closing threads, and perhaps get me to change my mind (which I did) or to reconsider my policy on closing threads (which I have), if you want to get actual responses and answers, then post politely in ATMB. I will at least reply to quiet and calm and rational discussion, although I may not change my position. I will NOT reply to threats, insults, etc.

[Giraffe]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

Giraffe: I had originally issued an Official Warning. Based on our PMs, I have rescinded the Official part. Consider my comments to be “friendly reminders,” admonitions to pull back rather than Official Warnings that go on the record. That clarify it?

Yes it does, thank you.

[Sleeps_With_Butterflies]

@Frank

I asked, “Why?” and gave some options. If not of those fit, you can always answer the question: Why?

I can’t answer for Squink, but it appears that Dex, for one, is having a hard time figuring out what is or isn’t a direct insult. We’ve already had it demonstrated by other mods/admins that it’s okay to attack the post and not the poster (That’s bullshit!), yet Dex insists there are insults here when there doesn’t appear to be any.

What it comes down to, in my eyes, is simply Dex saying “I don’t like the tone of this thread because people are complaining about a mod action (and now me!) and I’m going to put a stop to it.”

If these complaints were allowed to be in the Pit, Dex wouldn’t have to use his 72 point font silliness at all unless someone lost their mind and used the dreaded C-word! ::gasp:: Of course, if this was in The Pit he’d have to actually give answers that make sense to the question or just ignore it altogether.

For the record, I don’t agree with Carol’s complaint regarding Gfactor (I think he’s an excellent mod and a spiffy guy).

[Inner_Stickler]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

I’ve said it over and often, I’m gettting tired of repeating myself: If you want to vent, rant, express outraged indignation, go to the Pit. If you want to Pit me, as poster or moderator, go right ahead, you have my permission. I will not read it. I will not respond. If you go to the Pit and say “What the hell is stuck up your ass that makes you close threads just so you can have the last word?” then go to the Pit and say it. I won’t see it, and it won’t bother me in the least.

On the other hand, fi you want to ask about closing threads, and perhaps get me to change my mind (which I did) or to reconsider my policy on closing threads (which I have), if you want to get actual responses and answers, then post politely in ATMB. I will at least reply to quiet and calm and rational discussion, although I may not change my position. I will NOT reply to threats, insults, etc.

That is not the impression given to us before. I have seen several threads in the Pit complaining about moderator actions either closed or moved to ATMB against the wishes of the OP. Are you saying we can again pit moderators?

[tacoloco]

I see very few comments directed at what Carol Stream said and I see LOTS of comments about her/his motivation and patterns of behavior. Those are personal insults. They stop now.

They are not IN ANY WAY personal insults. You may choose to define them as prohibited, but they are not personal insults.

[Cat_Whisperer]

@Cat_Whisperer

So, it would be wrong of me to hypothetically say that this thread is some of Carol’s better work?

This post got me my first official warning on these boards in nine years.

[twickster]

@Inner_Stickler

That is not the impression given to us before. I have seen several threads in the Pit complaining about moderator actions either closed or moved to ATMB against the wishes of the OP. Are you saying we can again pit moderators?

No. Dex is saying you may Pit him, as long as you understand that he will neither read nor respond to the thread. Nor will any other moderator participate in such a thread (unless things get out of hand and Gfactor is forced to as the Pit moderator).

The rule continues to be that you may pit moderators for what they say as posters; if you have a question or comment about what they do as moderators, it should be addressed – civilly – in ATMB.