The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan. - SOURCE
Secondly, is it ethnic cleansing if you push a people out of a place because they repeatedly attack you? Is a country just meant to put up with it endlessly? This has been going on between Gaza and Israel for many decades.
The people are not the government. I expect this war will result in the end of the Hamas regime in Gaza and likely a very long occupation, but I don’t see mass relocations taking place.
I’m not modding anyone in this thread, but issuing a cautionary note:
This is an incredibly sensitive and fraught topic. Please be extra careful to discuss this matter within our rules, with civility and respect for opposing points of view. As always, you can make your points forcefully – but not with scorn or snark.
Hamas is known to use civilians as human shields by putting their missile batteries on civilian apartment blocks and hospitals and the like. This is a warning that those tactics will not dissuade Israel from striking legitimate targets even if there is a risk of collateral damage.
An accurate translation reads, ‘All the places that Hamas hides in and operates from - we will turn them into rubble. I am telling the citizens of Gaza, leave these places now.’
He does not say “cities of ruin”. He is 100% talking about people leaving specific buildings, not Gaza as a whole. Quoting the same shitty translation again won’t fool me when I can read the original
And this circles back to the OP’s original question. Is it “ethnic cleansing?”
Your first post said, “This is in incredibly bad taste.” I assume (correct me if I am wrong) that you thought the thread was meant to make an awful thing less awful and thus acceptable.
Yet, you are using the phrase to dial up the “badness” of it all (else why put it there?). War is bad, ethnic cleansing is worse. Indeed, I think the phrase has legal ramifications at the UN and in the International Court of Justice.
I agree that there is nothing “nice” about any of this. It is awful. I am shocked and wonder why Hamas did this now and it will only lead to more awful things in the near future.
But, I disagree that it is “ethnic cleansing” if Israel embarks on a years long effort to clear out Gaza. They are not trying to wipe out an ethnic group that is, arguably, not even a distinct ethnic group (see OP). I also do not think one can claim “ethnic cleansing” if that group is regularly and without respite trying to kill you…constantly. How long should anyone put up with that? We are far beyond one attack or a few. This is a decades old, non-stop effort.
Indeed, hasn’t it been the policy of those surrounding Israel to wipe them off the face of the earth (and they have tried with great effort…more than once)? Isn’t that “ethnic cleansing?”
Most Gazans, and most Palestinians, are not engaged in a violent effort to eliminate Israel. You’re making the same all too common mistake - presuming that Gazans and Palestinians are a monolith. They’re not. They’re just people. Most of them just want a chance at a decent life. Yes, of course trying to expel millions of men, women, and children from the place they and their ancestors have been living for generations is ethnic cleansing.
I think this goes to the local population aiding and abetting Hamas. Where are Hamas troops drawn from? How often do locals inform on a rocket battery being setup next to their house or inform on a tunnel used to smuggle arms in and so on?
We had this in WWII where it was Total War. Civilians were fair game. They were not completely innocent. They supported the war in myriad ways (growing food, working in factories and whatnot). The civilians enabled the war machine to operate.
I’m not sure where you draw the line but I am not sure one can say the residents of Gaza have nothing to do with what is happening because it’s really just a 1,000 bad guys causing all the fuss and everyone else has no part in it.
And I get how that is all a slippery slope to atrocity.
I think the issue is with the assumption loaded into the OP that forcibly ejecting millions of people from Gaza is something anyone would contemplate as a “solution”. Nothing hinges on what we would call it.
Many countries have worked diligently and put great effort into stopping the violence in that part of the world. I can’t overstate this…HUGE effort has been put into finding a solution for decades (50+ years).
This latest attack by Hamas is unusual in its scope and violence. Apparently nothing that has been tried so far has diminished the will of Hamas to cause mayhem.
Do you have a solution that will work? Something no one has thought of in the last 50+ years to stop this?
Do you think Israel just has to suck-up such violence and do nothing more than blow up a few buildings every time in response?
