Are PhDs worth it?

In My Humble Opinion
21

I have a PhD in an engineering/applied science field. I spent several years longer than I should have in grad school getting it, but that was entirely my own damn fault. Still, it was enjoyable and I’m very glad I did it.

I now work for an R&D company where about 40% of the technical staff have PhD’s. Most are not in fields directly related to our work, because almost no one studies exactly the sort of thing we do in school. Like Pleonast said, what you studied isn’t nearly as important as what completing the degree shows about you; if you have a doctorate in a technical field you are able to learn the stuff that’s specific to our work.

PhD’s start at a higher title and higher initial salary than somebody coming in with a BS or an MS (and we hire plenty of those, too). After that, it is largely incidental - how quickly you get promoted and gain responsibility is related to your work, not your degrees. There is no Great Divide within our company separating those with and those without doctorates, concerning either the kind of work one does or the amount of responsibility one has.

One thing to consider when talking salary: Remember that the years you spend in grad school getting that PhD are years not spent working full-time, and earning a full-time salary. My tuition was covered, and I got a stipend to live on while in grad school; my income (not counting the waived tuition) nearly doubled when I did a postdoc, and more than doubled again when I took my current “real” job. IOW, grad students make a pittance compared to their industrially-employed former classmates - the “lost income” from the time in grad school is a significant chunk of change.

Somebody at my company who got hired with a BS could have been working, getting paid well, and getting raises each year while his undergrad classmate in grad school getting a PhD. Five years later, when the second guy starts here, who’s making more money? Who comes out ahead in the end? I don’t have a clear answer.

I encourage those who want a PhD to do it - if the subject interests you, it can be a lot of fun and you’ll learn a lot. Just don’t think of it as a ticket to vast wealth. In either case, it’s what you do after school that will really determine your financial future.

22

+1. Figure out what you want to do, then decide whether the PhD is the right way to get there.

23

If you’re in education, they’re definitely worth it. Employees at the school district where I live get an automatic pay increase when they get their PhD, even if they’re teaching 3rd-graders. As far as I can tell it doesn’t make them better teachers, and most of the PhDs at the elementary level are in administration. The higher you go, though, the more necessary it is that you be that much more educated than your students.

But the people I’ve known who have gotten PhDs, except for education (and even some of those), have not done it for the money but because they like scholarly pursuits. Graduate programs give access to research options that otherwise are not available at all, plus a community that’s interested in achieving the same ends.

I assume if it wasn’t worth it to them they would pursue a different course. I dropped out of graduate school because I realized that wasn’t my path and, frankly, among the people who stayed on, there was a lot of bitching–but they didn’t quit.

24

I would warn you in advance about one common misconception. People generally believe that Ph.D. research is “real” research, or in other words that your doctoral thesis will get you into leading journals and will be read widely by those in the field. This is not true, at least in math and computer science, the two fields that I’m familiar with. A typical doctoral thesis gets published in an obscure journal. There may be five people on the whole planet who read it, if you’re lucky. It is not the entrance to real, serious, influential research. It is rather a stress-test to see if you’re willing to stick with a single topic for several years.

25

Definitely worth it for me. I have one in Computer Science. I went into industry right from school, after I realized that if I taught I’d have to teach dumb people also. I loved doing research, and I went to the research part of Western Electric where I could still do research, but be close to real problems. I’ve somehow managed to finagle positions for myself in the past 30 years where I can keep doing that. I’m also involved in the program side of journals and conferences where having a PhD is a real plus. I’ve made good money also, but mostly I do what I love. I came out of grad school with zero debt.

My daughter is in a PhD program now in Psychology, and she is having a wonderful time also. She’s got a nice fellowship, so she won’t have debt either. So that’s two votes.

On the other hand, a friend of mine got one and went off writing compilers. He was plenty smart, but didn’t have lots of research ideas. That might be the real criterion. If you keep on saying “wouldn’t it be interesting to study that” go for one. if you expect your adviser to assign you something so you can get through a dissertation to get a degree, don’t bother. If you want to get anywhere in a good university, you’re going to have to come up with research ideas and get grants. If you don’t like to do that, you won’t be good at it, and you’ll spend your life wandering in search of tenure.

26

Humph. I had chunks of mine published in a book, and RCA was even going for a contract from the government to exploit it. But my really good papers in grad school were on other topics.

The real benefit of publishing your dissertation is in understanding how the process works. That is one of the things a good adviser does for you.

What do you consider an obscure computer science journal? In IEEE journals, at least, the prestige is inversely proportional to the readership. It depends on your goals. I publish in conferences and IEEE magazines because I don’t have to worry about tenure, and am more interested in getting a conversation going. Those who care about tenure publish in write only journals like Transactions. We published some research our group did (not my dissertation stuff) in Computing Surveys and Transactions on Computers. The Surveys article was the background, and the Trans. Comput. article was the new stuff. We have evidence that no one read the Transactions article, since people kept saying someone should solve the problems we solved there.

27

In chemistry, you publish papers as you go along. I know of no case where the thesis was published as a body. In fact, people will often omit research from their thesis because it hasn’t been published yet. Usually you just take all the papers you’ve published and slap them together with some sort of introduction and you’re done. Takes about 2 weeks. No one reads it.

It also need not be on a single topic for several years. Unrelated works go in separate “chapters”.

28

If you think you might want to use your Ph.D to enter academia, one thing to think about is whether you are willing to relocate. My understanding of the job market for university faculty is that you have to be willing to apply all over the country to have a shot at success, and then potentially to relocate again as your career enters different phases.

29

This is exactly what I did in physics. My dissertation was a rewrite of my published papers, basically adding more detail that was originally cropped due to length and some connecting discussion.

30

Having not read any of the other posters:

I work as a biologist. It is extremely difficult (not quite impossible, but close) to advance to independent investigator status in biology without a PhD or equivalent degree (e.g., MD). Also, the vast majority of grants require a PhD-equivalent or an active student status, so not having one will cut your funding opportunities drastically.

The PhD is seen as proof that you can design and carry through a significant research project, and is all but indispensable for anyone who aspires to be more than a technician. If you are comfortable working under someone else’s direction for the rest of your life (which may entail a greater or lesser degree of autonomy, depending on the personality of your director), a Master’s is sufficient, although expect to do quite a lot of scutwork until you are recognized as having the ability and discipline for more responsibility. Also expect to be told “but you’re good, why don’t you go to school and get your PhD?” incessantly.

31

In my graduate program, you were permitted to submit a reprint of any published first-author papers in lieu of a thesis chapter; the “dream thesis” among the grad students was to have published five first-author papers, so you would merely have to print out a copy of each and stack them together. :slight_smile: (No-one actually achieved this, although some came close.)

32

These days if you work at a job where recruiting is at the national level the same thing holds true for industry. Now I’m in Silicon Valley the chances of having to move are much less, but still there.

33

One thing that does concern me is that I’m not really an “idea guy”. I’m a “problem solver”. That is, I generally work best if someone gives me a high-level instruction like “solve this problem”, rather than coming up with the problem itself on my own.

Is that going to be a hindrance?

34

This is exactly why I’m back in a PhD program after six years in the industry.

35

I’d say in general “yes”. You may luck out in grad school and work with an advisor who basically gives you a ready-made project. I know many PIs who run their labs this way–like little factories. I always feel sorry for their grad students because they inevitably end up viewing their advisor as a boss who should be revered or feared rather than as a mentor. And of course, there’s the big issue of them not coming up with original research and just being a glorified technician. They leave school never being anything more than that.

Post graduation, working either as a poc-doc or as a researcher, you are going to have to be an independent problem-solver. There’s no way to avoid it. If you want to be a problem-solver, then getting a Ph.D is a perfect way to learn how. If you don’t want to be one, then you’ll make a major mistake getting a Ph.D.

Is a Ph.D worth it? I’m still finding out. I got mine about five years ago. Monetarily it hasn’t paid off. I’m not eating top ramen for dinner, but my current salary is comparable to someone who has a bachelor’s and an equal amount of experience. However, I don’t think I’d be able to do my job if it hadn’t been for the stuff I learned in grad school. So to me, that makes the degree very valuable.

Depending on where you work, there is a lot of professional prestige associated with the degree. There are three other Ph.Ds on my floor and fairly or not, we’re esteemed in a way other people aren’t. My supervisor consults me for advice and actually listens to me, and I think his respect for my educational background is responsible for this. When the budget is being slashed left and right, anything that can help you earn respect is valuable.

However, in some workplaces it doesn’t add much value and can in fact hold you back. Having a Ph.D can make you overqualified for many jobs that may be “perfect” for you. I remember regretting my degree when I was looking for jobs post-graduation. I didn’t want to do a post-doc, so I thought I could jump right into the workforce and land a 9-to-5. Nope. No one wanted a Ph.D unless they were willing to run a research project as either a post-doc or tenure-track research professor. I surrended and ended up doing a post-doc, which I haven’t regretted at all since it helped me get the wonderful job I have now. But the degree did make my life harder. I would have had more options if I only had a Master’s.

36

But why does it have to be only a means to an end? The average Ph.D spends what, 7-8 years in college, another 2 postdoc? 10 years of your whole life is nothing more than a means to an end? That’s so sad.

If I do decide to go for it, it definitely won’t be solely as a means to an end, but also for the exhilarating experience of such a trial by fire. I love doing things that are difficult, and I love learning (about most everything, but especially my passions) and the idea of having to do this taxing, interesting thing that requires years of perseverance is extremely compelling. I would hope I have a nervous breakdown or two, a few long, dark teatimes of the soul… there’s no high greater than doing the thing you think you cannot do. It’s one of the most important elements to my life.

Additionally, every month I spend away from academia, I feel a piece of my soul shrivel up. I love the specific challenges that arise in an academic environment and I’m well-suited to meeting them. I hate stagnating intellectually, and the truth is I can’t learn as effectively outside of a formal academic environment. I can read Beck and Seligman and Damasio 'til I’m blue in the face and never learn half of what I can learn writing a single research paper or taking a single course. Engaging the material repetitively and obsessively makes a true difference for me.

That said, I won’t go for the Ph.D. if I find out that it will take away opportunities from me. My ultimate goal is to have as many options as possible. The particular degree I’m going for this fall is very practical and flexible and blows open all sorts of doors. I’m not rushing into anything, and I’m having more than one sit-down with a career counselor before I make that level of commitment.

As for being poor the rest of your life, I truly don’t get how that’s possible. Our combined household income doesn’t even crack $50k and we have pretty high rent even for the area. We’re not exactly lighting our cigarettes with dollar bills, but we’re very comfortable and usually able to buy what we want when we want it. Even if we each made $10k more a year following graduation, that gives us $20k a year to pay off student loans. By my calculations we can pay off my student loans (worst case around $100k) within 5 years of graduation, assuming we each make an average of $35k. I guess if you’re single it would be harder, but still entirely do-able. My Mom paid off her engineering debt in 5 years as a single parent.

So for those of you who suffer (or have seen others suffer) this problem of crushing student debt, what circumstances created the problem? Is it not as simple to get rid of as I think? I can see if you had a pre-existing debt load, or a pre-existing financial drain like a child or high medical expenses or something else, but just for your average person, really?

(that might be a new thread topic… sorry for the hijack)

37

I was doing one. In Irish Literature.

I got the short end of the stick- three supervisors in four years, four different thesis topics, supervisors who were disinterested to the point of doing nothing to help. I know what a PhD entails. I also know what they’re expected to do.

I never had the ‘red mist’ descend before until supervisor number 3 decided that supervisor number 2 had ‘let’ me ask a false question- I was doing Northern Irish poetry. Supervisor 2 believes that NI poetry is a valid subset of poetry. Supervisor 3 believes that category does not exist, and even though part of the work I was doing entailed a justification of there being Northern Irish poetry, he refused to go forward on what he considered a false premise.

When meetings rolled around, my work hadn’t been reviewed- I was asked to sit in the office and read while he paged through thirty pages in five minutes and told me what to change. Yes, the man who told me I had a false premise didn’t actually know what my premise was. Next meeting, he ridicules me for the changes I made on his suggestion. There were many statements that he made that were later denied in other meetings with my secondary supervisor.

When I asked to have him removed as my supervisor, I was told that personality conflicts were my problem, not theirs.

It all got very much worse when my father died and I tried to take time off. This is long, involved and fucked up.

While I do want to finish some day, I needed to leave. It was an abusive situation that made a few letters before and after my name very not worth it at that insitution and at this time.

38

I like your comment about how such a big chunk of your life shouldn’t be viewed as a means to an end. I would need something to tell an admissions committee, though. :slight_smile: Not to mention something to actually do when I finish the degree, and a justification to friends and family.

I don’t want to go in debt, so it would definitely have to be funded. Even a tiny, barely surviving stipend would be okay, but NOT debt.

I’m willing to learn to be an idea guy, if such a skill can be learned.

39

When you say not debt, how much not debt do you mean? My husband is getting his doctorate in clinical psychology. He is getting a tiny, barely surviving stipend ($20k a year) and free tuition, but he took out $20k in student loans which we are saving in case we have to get a used car or have unexpected expenses. If we weren’t a dual income, he’d definitely be using that $20k, and probably have to take out more. So the question is, do you have a sugar mama? If not, you’re likely going to have some debt.

I don’t think it’s entirely reasonable to expect no debt whatsoever. I also don’t think it’s going to be some kind of lifetime burden, if you’re smart about it. Sr. Olives and I have made a pact that we’re not taking on a mortgage until the loans are gone. I estimate that means 5-7 years of living in an apartment post graduation. Is that really such a sacrifice?

40

To be honest, I don’t think it can. Being creative and inquisitive and just unsure of yourself is one thing. But not having any ability to ask your own questions? If there’s any trait necessary to be a Ph.D, I’d say it’s being an “idea guy”. Master’s students are allowed to be such blank slates, to a certain degree. But Ph.D students are expected to hit the ground running.

Like I said before, you might luck out and get a professor who will take you by the hand, tell you what you’re going to work on, and then micromanage you along the way. But when it comes time for you to graduate, they won’t look at you like you’re their equal. And the truth of the matter is, you won’t be. You’ll be their glorified technician.

You will suffer a tremendous inferiority complex if you start a Ph.D program unprepared with your own questions and ideas.