Are Senators Scared OF Body Builders?

[Wildest_Bill]

Originally posted by Sam Stone

**Steroids should be legal, since I believe that all drugs should be legal.

However, they should be ABSOLUTELY banned from every sporting competition, and I guess that means we’d need urine testing for athletes at all levels, including high school. (I’m not talking about government regulation, but voluntary enforcement by the various sports authorities. I would not let my child engage in any sport that didn’t ban performance-enhancing drugs). If you allow athletes to take steroids, then the advantage goes to the one most willing to damage his body through heavy drug usage. That puts heavy pressure on all the competitors to follow suit.

I certainly don’t want my child thinking that she has to take drugs to compete in sports.

**

Sam excellent post. This is exactly what should be done. I don’t think steroids should be in sports either(except body building). No one should have to take roids to compete with someone that does. That is not right. But it is also not right to limit individuals who want to use roids for reasons other than sports.

I think as much money that is in sports they can afford to have mandatory drug testing for participants. They could also let doctors prescribe them(for body building) that should help keep them out of the hands of young users.

Mssmith,

The topic is on why roids are illegal. I think it is because of sports with the “so-called” health risks as the reason for the illegality. I mean why doesn’t the govt just come out and say since this country is so preoccuppied with sports we are going to make roids illegal to keep sports totally fair. At least that would be honest. But to say that roids are bad because of health reason is just total hyprocracy when you have tobacco and alcohol legal.

Guin,

Tell ya why I used “thing” is because I hate the term “penis”. I don’t why but I do. I think it sounds weird and perverted for some reason. I wish they would change the medical term to pecker or dick heck even tallywag sounds better than penis.

Yes, I agree there is nothing wrong with diet and exercise I am doing both(5 or 6 times a week 90minutes+ per workout). You see I don’t mind lifting weights but to get looking pretty buff(you know like my goal of looking like the dudes playing volleyball in Top Gun) takes about 2 years. I don’t think I could keep up with my present regimend(sp) for two years(frankly, I think I would die :eek: ).

But roids make the same body in about 8 to 10 weeks the probably 2 years of working out will do. Not saying you don’t have to work out hard on roids. You probably have to work harder. But the roids give you more stength to lift heavier and it cuts down on recovery time.

So roids get you to the same goal faster. Look at it this way a horse and buggy is a safer way to travel than a car but why do you take a car because it gets you there faster.

Originally quoted by Esprix:

What, exactly, is an “infactuation,” and why is it somehow related to SPORTS (in all caps)?

In-fat-u-a-tion - inspire with a foolish or extravegant love or admiration.

Well, I think that answers your point. People spend thousands of dollars on tickets, jerseys, tshirts etc on sports do they not? And what about the huge amounts of time they spend neglecting their families while they become totally unhealthy couch potatos watching somebody run a pig skin to the other side of a line or throw a ball through a hoop.

Listen, obviously, I don’t care that much about team sports. I like individual extreme sports like wakeboarding and motorcross(btw I do both of these I just don’t watch). Different strokes for different folks right. But what bothers me is they made something that shouldn’t be illegal illegal because of something that other people care about.

But on the otherhand maybe you were just making fun because I put a “c” in the word. Whoops! Glad to have the English teacher back to help keep me in line. I also put sports in caps because I was yelling it.

[Guinastasia]

Bill-why are you so worried about impressing these people, how probably aren’t so buff anymore themselves?
And you’re ashamed of the word penis? I know, it does sound kinda funny, as does vagina and a lot of other words. So what?

[Wildest_Bill]

Originally posted by Guinastasia

[Bill-why are you so worried about impressing these people, how probably aren’t so buff anymore themselves?

I know this sounds kinda weird. But I really wasn’t that attractive when I was in Jr High and High School. So some of the girls really didn’t give me the time of day. But I guess I am lucky I think I gotten better with age. So I want to even look better just to rub it in the faces of the girls that use to not give me the time of day (got a pretty wife too)and the guys that ever picked on me. Is that shallow or what?

And you’re ashamed of the word penis? I know, it does sound kinda funny, as does vagina and a lot of other words. So what?

Not ashamed just fell weird or icky saying it. I think we should rename the male organ to dick or pecker. It sounds cooler and better. I mean wussy doctor came up with “penis” anyway?

Vagina fagina, heck I don’t care what you call them still like em’.

[gobear]

Bill, steroids are nothing you want to mess with. For one thing, when you flood your body with steroids, your systems stops making testosterone. The estrogen your body secretes
(yes, men AND women secrete both hormones, just in different proportions)will cause your genitals to shrink and your breasts to grow, a condition called gynecomastia or “bitch tits.” In addition, several medical studies have linked steroid use to liver cancer, osteoporosis, and heart arrythmia. The temproaray increase in muscle mass is not worth the medical risks.

[Wildest_Bill]

Goboy,

I appreciate the concern. But I think all of the symptoms you have listed comes after long term use. I don’t plan on using them that long(if I can ever find any - stupid law). Also if you take a drug called clomid your body starts making test again quicker and you save most of your gains.
But remember this thread is “Why” they are illegal when other things like cigarettes aren’t. And cigarettes have caused more illnesses than roids anyday.

[JubilationTCornpone]

*Originally posted by Utopia *
**
JubilationTCornpone, but what would be the specifics of the law? Would it be illegal for a pregnant woman to buy alcohol? What if it is for her husband? Or she is entertaining guests?
**

First, please not that I wasn’t advocating any particular legal stance on the matter. I was merely pointing out that the current legality of inflicting fetal death syndrome does not make it morally acceptable – or that it should be legal.

Anyway, I think it’s clear that merely purchasing alcohol under such circumstances should not be illegal – and by no means did I suggest such a thing. The ingestion of it in medically unsafe quantities is another thing.

[Guinastasia]

Can anyone tell Bill the short term effects?
Good heavens, Bill-they do cause mood swings as short term effects, I believe. Do you REALLY want to start swinging at your old principal?

[Wildest_Bill]

Originally posted by Guinastasia

Do you REALLY want to start swinging at your old principal?

No, but there is the one football coach that pulled my helmet off with my strap still attached. Na I’m over that especially after putting those rotten eggs in his office that smelled for at least a week until they got it fumigated.

[Guinastasia]

Bill-think of hte example you’d be setting for your girls.
YOu want them to look up to you as a father, right?
Would you like it if one of them decided to try binging and purging JUST ONCE to lose a little weight?

[pldennison]

So, even though you’re married, with daughters, you want a legal shortcut to getting a “Muscle and Fitness” type body, so you can attempt to make women who you aren’t married to and who are probably older and wiser feel badly about themselves? And you aren’t even willing to put in the long-term hard work necessary to bring about this terrible humiliation to these women–you just want a magic pill?

Using the word “shallow” to describe you would be an insult to shallow people, Bill.

[Mr.Zambezi]

I don’t think we can mix sports rules up with the law in this instance. They tend to be different animals. For example, I am pretty sure that tackling someone on the street is illegal. But doing it on the field is OK. In sports, consenting people generally agree to a set of rules and then have at it.

I am not so sure that steroids are as harmful as they are depicted. There are times when one reaches a plateau either in strength or speed and a cycle or two would be very helpfull and not that risky. I really don’t see the harm done to innocent third parties. Although, I almost did get beat up by a steroid enraged boyfriend of a honey I was sleeping with. But I think that my behavior was the risky part.

I took 4 vials of testosterone years back. It got me over the hump without shrinking my John Thomas. I for one would take a cycle or two of winstrol.

As far as androstenodione, my understanding is that it does not increase testosterone when taken orally. But if it does, let me know and I will buy some.

[Wildest_Bill]

Boy Guin,

Now you’re hitting below belt bringing up my daughters. Ok let me think this out. Sure I want to be a good example to my daughters. That is why I am so upset about them being illegal.

But you see I don’t think steroids are as bad as they are put out to be. There again the sports issue is why.

They(media, law enforcement)bring up every negative point of roids to discourage people from taking them once again I believe because of sports. Look at motorcycle helmets for example. Everytime you hear about a motorcycle wreck they bring up if he was wearing a helmet or not. I could hear the stupid news caster now, “Joe Blow was decapitated after his bike ran under an 18 wheeler. He was however wearing a helmet.” They make like wearing a helmet is so imparative to safety but they never tell you the other side of the coin about your vision or hearing being impaired by a helmet.

So you see Guin maybe you have been brainwashed by the media too. Unless you do you’re own research from people that take roids you don’t have the full story. Afterall they are the only ones that are going to give you the other side of debate.

Like I said, I have no totally decided to do roids yet. I would do a cycle of winstrol though.

Thanks for you’re input Mr Zambezi. Let me know if you find some winny.

But just to make clear one more time. This debate is NOT about whether “wildest bill” ei “me” should do roids or not. Although I really do appreciate ya’lls concern.

It is about why steroids are illegal and other harmful products like alcohol and cigarrettes are not. It is a MASSIVE double standard. And the reason is because of sports not medical side effect(which are extremely bloated maybe even manufactured).

[pldennison]

I think everybody understands your question, Bill, but I think (stop me if you’ve heard this one) you are having some problems with your presentation because you appear inarticulate and incapable of understanding complex causes. Please, I beg you, quit insulting intelligent people with your atrocious spelling and grammar. Please try.

First, to address “Why is X illegal when tobacco and alcohol are not?” Well, simple answer is “because.” Tobacco has been grown on American soil since time immemorial. It’s reach into our culture is incredibly pervasive. Over the years, though, there have been laws against using it in certain places, at certain times, and by certain people. Same with alcohol–it pervades not only our culture, but all cultures. We tried making it illegal nationwide for 10 years or so, and you see how well that worked. Steroid use is a relatively recent phenomenon, and isn’t as culturally embedded as the others. Anyway, I don’t think any argument of the type, “Y is legal so X should be legal, too” is a good one. X is not Y; let them be debated on their own merits.

Second, you seem to want to reduce everything to this absurd “Senators like sports and want sports to be fair so they banned steroids.” Egads. I mean, do you have any understanding of the complexity of issues like this? Yes, parents groups and medical professionals approached the Congress in the 1980s because of widespread steroid use by high-school athletes. There’s an excellent summary here. Hearings were initiated due to pressure from those groups and because of the enormous amount of black-market trafficking in steroids, which could only be obtained through a physician’s prescription at the time. Despite the testimony of the AMA, the DEA, and other regulatory and medical professional, Congress made them Schedule III anyway. Yes, there’s little doubt that the largest amount of urging was from athletic groups.

My opinion? Make them legal. You want to fuck your body up, that’s your business. You want to take shortcuts, hey, it’s your life. But don’t pretend that there aren’t external and social costs, and be prepared to deal with them head-on when they inevitably come. We accept (for lack of a better word) alcoholism, drunk driving, spousal abuse and all the attendant ills as the social costs of legal alcohol. We except increased cancer, emphysema and cardiovascular disease as the social costs of smoking. So be prepared for increases in all of the health risks associated with use.

[Jackmannii]

Here’s one vote against the “all drugs should be legal” argument. To mention just anabolic steroids - I don’t want my health insurance costs to be bumped up by all the steroid users who develop liver cancer, mental problems or other damaging health effects on these drugs. Nor do I want a member of my family harmed by some idiot in a 'roid rage. Drugs are available only by prescription for a reason - most people don’t have the training to use them properly and safely.

You do not get permanent increases in muscle mass through limited usage of anabolic steroids. The same babes who are oohing and aahing over your pecs will be snickering a few months down the road.

I can live with the hypocrisy of having tobacco and alcohol legal. We don’t need a lot of other garbage flooding society.

And by the way - the accepted bi-gender term for genitalia in the medical biz is “pee-pees”. Feel free to use it.

[Wildest_Bill]

Originally posted by pldennison [

I think everybody understands your question, Bill, but I think (stop me if you’ve heard this one)

Yes. STOP!

you are having some problems with your presentation because you appear inarticulate and incapable of understanding complex causes.

Oh shoot you kept going. Thanks for at least using the word appear

Please, I beg you, quit insulting intelligent people with your atrocious spelling and grammar. Please try.

Well as long as you are knees begging that is the least I can do is try. You know how I just love insulting intellegent people with my atrocious spelling and grammar. :rolleyes:

First, to address “Why is X illegal when tobacco and alcohol are not?” Well, simple answer is “because.”

Because huh? Wow, now that’s a great argument. Can I use that one from now on?

Tobacco has been grown on American soil since time immemorial. It’s reach into our culture is incredibly pervasive. Over the years, though, there have been laws against using it in certain places, at certain times, and by certain people. Same with alcohol–it pervades not only our culture, but all cultures.

Funny testorone has been in man ever since man was created. So if that is the case, it should definetely be legal huh?

[quote]
We tried making it illegal nationwide for 10 years or so, and you see how well that worked.[/ Steroid use is a relatively recent phenomenon, and isn’t as culturally embedded as the others.

[quote]

No, like I said testerone is already produced in the body(can’t get more embedded than that huh) whereas alcohol and tobacco are not.

Anyway, I don’t think any argument of the type, “Y is legal so X should be legal, too” is a good one. X is not Y; let them be debated on their own merits.

Merits huh? Steroids make you stronger, bigger and faster. Just exactly what positive affects do tobacco and alcohol have?

Second, you seem to want to reduce everything to this absurd “Senators like sports and want sports to be fair so they banned steroids.”

No, what I said was senators like drinking and smoking and since the people that vote for them like sports(and senators are too lazy to bust butt in the qym), they made them illegal because it appeased the sports fans and it didn’t hinder their vices.

Yes, there’s little doubt that the largest amount of urging was from athletic groups.

There you go. You are agreeing with me so why are you debating me on this? Sports were even listed as the main reason for them being illegal in your cite. Face it sports are why they are illegal. Which is wrong!!!

My opinion? Make them legal.

Thanks. But you know what they will never be legal. Because people don’t want their precious sports tampered with. Kind of messes up the point spread for the game you know. :rolleyes: (the rolleyes was not for you in this case it was for the insane love of sports country even so far as to interfere with happiness of others.)

You want to fuck your body up, that’s your business. You want to take shortcuts, hey, it’s your life.

Hey live and live huh bud? No one has given me the HORRIBLE side effects of short term use. You know why cause nothing is that bad in moderation. Especially something the body already normally produces.

We accept (for lack of a better word) alcoholism, drunk driving, spousal abuse and all the attendant ills as the social costs of legal alcohol. We except increased cancer, emphysema and cardiovascular disease as the social costs of smoking.

Yea, we all know for sure that these things happen with alcohol and tobacco abuse . But you know what? You can still by them at your neighbor 7-11. Steroids on the otherhand you can’t get even get prescribe to you by a doctor (as far as bodybuilding usage). And You still don’t spend a night jail if you get caught with alcohol or a smoke. Seems really fair huh?

So be prepared for increases in all of the health risks associated with use.

Okie dokie.

[Mr.Zambezi]

pld, is your peevishness with pld a carryover from some other thread. I didn’t see anything that **wild bill **said that was particularly insulting.
… poor spelling an insult?

Hell, me use bad gramer next time I wants to insults somewun…

[Necros]

Ok, WB, so let’s say that steroids, and all other drugs, are now legal. This would solve any worries that you have about the inconsistencies in the law. Because if you’re arguing that drugs should be legalized, and that adults should be able to make their own decisions about what they put into their bodies, you probably won’t get a tremendous amount of argument from the SDMB crowd.

But just because something is legal doesn’t mean that you should do it. Alcohol is legal, but that doesn’t mean you should drink a fifth of bourbon a night. It’s not good for you. And that doesn’t change because something is legal or not.

Guin mentioned your daughters. Would you want them drinking a case of beer every night, even if it were legal for them to do so?

Do you need to be told not to use the hairdryer in the bathtub? Some people obviously do. Other people think they should be allowed to base-jump off the Empire State Building. So there are laws against it.

The cost of getting rid of the “nanny state” is that people should probably avoid being complete idiots. It pains a civil libertarian such as myself to see you fighting so hard for the things, such as drug laws, that you claim to be fighting against.

[Mr.Zambezi]

someone mentioned the long term effects of steroids re: not getting permanently larger. I have a friend who was a starter in the NFL for 3 years. Steroid usage was wide spread, but most of the guys cycled off season. I find it hard to believe that they would have taken steroids had they not had a lasting effect during the season.

But he also said that there were guys who never lifted weights and could bench press over 400lbs. Liek so many things, strength and looks are a combination of genetics and environment.

I think that the desire to be a little faster, stronger or better looking is wide spread. I am willing to bet that the number of cosmetic surgeries is higher than the number of steroid users. Both have the same attraction. I really don’t see much diffence between women going on starvation diets and men taking steroids. We are all just trying to accellerate the process. The difference is that women can get skinny by not eating. Men have to work awfully darn hard to pack on mass.

[Kimstu]

WB: *Funny testo[ster]rone has been in man ever since man was created. So if that is the case, it should definetely be legal huh? *

Bill, you really, really want to watch out for this line of “reasoning”. Are you seriously prepared to defend the position that anything the body does naturally is therefore automatically okay, and an artificially produced simulation of it should be available on demand?! Consider the case of spontaneous abortion, aka miscarriage, in pregnant females. Women’s bodies have been spontaneously aborting fetuses ever since woman was created, right? So if that is the case, abortion should definitely be legal, huh? See where this line of “reasoning” can get you?

Once again we have a classic WB GD OP which basically hinges on the fact that he finds a certain aspect of law or society personally inconvenient, and therefore constructs an unsupported assault on the motives and characters of the people who have helped to bring it about, blithely ignoring complex arguments and evidence on both sides of the question. (But on another level I’m always pleased to see one of these threads, as they generally enable me to add to my collection of Categories of People WB Doesn’t Like, membership in which is IMHO one of the last truly meaningful accolades left. Let’s see, so far I think the collection contains lawyers, newspaper reporters, ACLU members (yay! I made the club! :)), and now senators, and perhaps doctors (can we add doctors, Bill? there are some great doctors on this board who I think deserve the compliment). Have I missed anybody?)

[Ankh_Too]

*Originally posted by Wildest Bill *
**But remember this thread is “Why” they are illegal when other things like cigarettes aren’t. And cigarettes have caused more illnesses than roids anyday. **

Yes, I know this is supposed to be about the reasons behind the prohibition of anabolic and other steriods, but if you’re going to toss out incorrect information, I’m going to take the opportunity to rebut it:

*Originally posted by Wildest Bill *
Also if you take a drug called clomid your body starts making test again quicker and you save most of your gains.

According to the information available from InfoLink, that’s simply not true:

From the DrugInfoNet’s Steriod FAQ
**Steroid Side Effects [posted 11/25/98]
Question: I am getting mixed messages concerning anabolic steriod use. Is there a steriod if used for a few months only, will allow for strength and mass growth that will remain after discontinued use (while working out continues) with little to no adverse side effects?

Answer: None of the steroids will allow for sustained muscle increase except when one is taking the drug. As to adverse side effects it depends on the dosage, the length and your susceptibility. Not all taking steroids experience side effects that are permanent;but, some do**

And before you bitch that I am simply parroting the anti-steroid hysteria of the government which makes them illegal in the first place, this FAQ is compiled by doctors, not bureacrats who wish to keep innocent sportsmen down so they don’t threaten the fragile equilibrium that is professional sports.
Clomid (clomiphene citrate) is a drug used to induce ovulation in infertile women. All the reports that I managed to find on the Web regarding the use of Clomid by a male in conjunction with anabolic steroids were on sites that either sold or advertised steroids or paraphernalia. Needless to say, they do not make the most reliable sources of unbiased information concerning its efficacy. Even so, they do not seem to make claims that you will retain the muscle gain that you have acquired, only that your testes will begin to produce its own testosterone sooner than it would have otherwise.

Even if we stipulate, for the purposes of discussion only, that it did manage to help you “hang on” to the gains in muscle mass, wouldn’t that then require you to take the Clomid for as long as you wished to retain your “buff bod”?