Aren’t there some situations where a genuine sociopath could actually use their lack of empathy or compassion to make good, like being a fearless solider or spy, or does doing any kind of job require some base level of human empathic skills in order to communicate with others, and not hurt those who are on your side?
Can genuine sociopaths who would meet all the DSM metrics (ie more than just people who are professional assholes) make good in modern society?
Sales
Politics come to mind.
Given all the compromise necessary, only caring about keeping people happy enough to re-elect one would come in handy. I can’t imagine how a person with actual ideals would survive.
Sales and politics? I said “make good”. *Successful * sales people and politicians require very powerful empathic skills in order to do well. If anything sales people and politicians, even if they are ethically challenged in a particular circumstance, are probably the farthest away from the sociopathic mode of thought.
Business and politics are both fields in which sociopaths are successful. You are confusing the appearance of empathy with the reality of it. The fact that so many politicians are ethically challenged is an indication that many are able act in ways that people like you or I cannot. And they can do so without a twinge of guilt because all that matters to them is their own welfare.
My SO has a friend that I consider to be a sociopath. She never seems to express genuine emotion, she’s always studying those around her before she gives a reaction of her own. She feels very uncomfortable 1 on 1 conversations, but thrives in a group environment where she can pick up on the mood and act along with it.
I have my misgivings about her, but from all that I can tell she is doing a fine job at our local humane society. She has a bond w/ animals that she just can’t quite form with people.
I am watching this thread with interest, because my oldest daughter seems to be a sociopath; She just turned 21, and I’m hoping fervently that she will turn out to be something other than a welfare dependent.
The sad thing (for me) is that she’s very bright. She just doesn’t seem to care for anyone or anything outside herself at this very moment.
[QUOTE=don’t ask]
Business and politics are both fields in which sociopaths are successful. You are confusing the appearance of empathy with the reality of it. The fact that so many politicians are ethically challenged is an indication that many are able act in ways that people like you or I cannot. And they can do so without a twinge of guilt because all that matters to them is their own welfare.
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I don’t want to hijack my own OP to Cuba, but this is relatively cartoonish view of how sales and politics operates. *Successful * salespeople and politicians require clients that come back to them time and again, and refer or recommend that others use them or affiliate with them. A salesperson or politician cannot afford to piss off clients or constituents by defrauding or cheating them. There are certainly some salespeople and politicians that are ethically challenged, or more often make stupid moves that get them deeper and deeper into compromised or illegal situations, but few if any of these are people who are operating successfully behind some psychologically anomic mask where the client is a simply means to an end.
Well, for starters…how are we defining “sociopath”? The Dread Wikipedia, for example, has three major articles under the heading of “sociopath,” including two different personality disorders, and a rather lengthy text on psychopathy. Each with at least one different symptoms checklist.
For what it’s worth, I could imagine that it’s possible for someone with sociopathic tendencies to at least get by in society, without automatically degenerating into a corpse raping ghoul. Like if the simply fear getting caught and punished for breaking the law, or—even more simply—they happen to find some niche in life where they’re perfectly satisfied without needing to break the law. They might still be a callous, manipulative asshole, but if they, say, only want to find fame, glory, and triumph as a chess grandmaster, committing felonies might be the farthest thing from their mind.
Well, how about acting, for a high-functioning sociopath? Who better at learning the social conventions of expressing emotion?
[QUOTE=astro]
A salesperson or politician cannot afford to piss off clients or constituents by defrauding or cheating them. …
There are certainly some salespeople and politicians that …get … deeper and deeper into compromised or illegal situations, but few … are operating successfully…[heavily abbreviated]
[/QUOTE]
I respectfully disagree on the first point; I would argue they can not afford *** to get caught*** defrauding and cheating, and that sociopaths would be good at not getting caught.
As to the second point, many do get caught; I suspect 99% of the time TPTB find a way to keep things quiet, and so we only suffer very few of the possible scandals, and that such people can operated successfully for years. But then, I was raised Catholic.
I won’t link to the post so I’m sure I don’t embarrass anyone, but at least one one of our members has claimed to be a sociopath in the past, and I think it would be very interesting to hear their opinion on this question. I’d like to see how their perception of the world differs from ordinary people, and what guides their actions.
[QUOTE=Mr Buttons]
My SO has a friend that I consider to be a sociopath. She never seems to express genuine emotion, she’s always studying those around her before she gives a reaction of her own. She feels very uncomfortable 1 on 1 conversations, but thrives in a group environment where she can pick up on the mood and act along with it.
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Could she possibly be mildly autistic?
I prefer the term Psychopathy myself. Sociopathy has been used for a variety of different conditions in the past, and thus can cause confusion. And there are subtle differences between the two diagnoses as they now stand.
But yes, it is possible for these narcissistic, amoral, empathyless, aggressive people to succeed. If they can obtain what they want without running afoul of the law or too many social mores, they can sometimes be found to work very hard to obtain it. These folks often avoid diagnosis for a long time, as they don’t draw much negative attention to themselves.
Where many get into trouble is if they have additional personality disorders/characteristics that don’t mix well with psychopathy. If they’re both sadistic and psychopathic, the only thing keeping them from practicing their sadism is the fear of punishment. If he thinks he can get away with it, he’ll swerve to run someone down who’s walking alongside the road.
But if the psychopath isn’t sadistic, he won’t go out of his way to run someone down in the road because it’ll be too much of an inconvenience to him to deal with the possible consequences.
[QUOTE=j666]
Well, how about acting, for a high-functioning sociopath? Who better at learning the social conventions of expressing emotion?
I respectfully disagree on the first point; I would argue they can not afford *** to get caught*** defrauding and cheating, and that sociopaths would be good at not getting caught.
As to the second point, many do get caught; I suspect 99% of the time TPTB find a way to keep things quiet, and so we only suffer very few of the possible scandals, and that such people can operated successfully for years. But then, I was raised Catholic.
[/QUOTE]
A sexual predator priest many have a bushel basket full of sexuality issues, but that does not make them, by any stretch of the imagination, a true “sociopath”. Per Ranchoth’s request I am defining sociopath as someone who, brain wiring wise, just does not “get” empathy. This is why all these notions about true sociopaths carving a successful swath in sales, politics, and business are absurd. You can only fake relating to other humans behind an anomic mask to a limited extent and the tendency to violate social norms will out most of them. Again, asshole, even “super-asshole”, does not equal sociopath. Everyday, garden variety obnoxious assholes are generally acting out of some fetid blend of arrogance and philosophical conviction, it’s not that they can’t understand your perspective, they do, but they think theirs is more important. Sociopaths never “get it” to begin with.
[QUOTE=astro]
A sexual predator priest many have a bushel basket full of sexuality issues, but that does not make them, by any stretch of the imagination, a true “sociopath”. Per Ranchoth’s request I am defining sociopath as someone who, brain wiring wise, just does not “get” empathy. This is why all these notions about true sociopaths carving a successful swath in sales, politics, and business are absurd. You can only fake relating to other humans behind an anomic mask to a limited extent and the tendency to violate social norms will out most of them. Again, asshole, even “super-asshole”, does not equal sociopath. Everyday, garden variety obnoxious assholes are generally acting out of some fetid blend of arrogance and philosophical conviction, it’s not that they can’t understand your perspective, they do, but they think theirs is more important. Sociopaths never “get it” to begin with.
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You misunderstood; I was simply presenting the argument that people can go for years without ‘getting caught’.
I don’t think anyone in this thread is conflating ‘sociopathy’ with ‘asshole-dom’; they are narrowing on the lack of empathy, and suggesting professions and situations in which that would be an advantage.
Now, I, and others, were assuming the ability to fake empathy convincingly; “everyone” learns to do that, to some degree.
I could argue that a highly ‘socialize’ sociopath with clearly defined long-term goals is particularly suited to succeed in most professions. They would need to overcome two tendencies:
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Ambition might be enough of a motivation to do so.
[QUOTE=don’t ask]
Business and politics are both fields in which sociopaths are successful.
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If sociopaths do well in “Business” and “politics,” I’m curious as to what non-sociopaths do well in. You’ve identified the private sector and the public sector as good sociopath careers; what other sectors are there?
Identifying “business” as a career is only slightly less generic than saying “Sociopaths are good at, you know, doing stuff.”
[QUOTE=j666]
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Ambition might be enough of a motivation to do so.
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Sociopaths can’t overcome those tendencies, not in the long run. That’s what makes them sociopaths.
Have you ever known a real, honest-to-God sociopath? I did. She could fool you for a little while; but in the long run she simply could not be more than she was, and everything in her life went to shit. Sociopaths lack foresight and impulse control; they screw their lives up one way or another. She was bright, but the idea of her holding down an actual, successful career is inconceivable. It’s just not within her capabilities.
[QUOTE=astro]
I don’t want to hijack my own OP to Cuba, but this is relatively cartoonish view of how sales and politics operates. *Successful * salespeople and politicians require clients that come back to them time and again, and refer or recommend that others use them or affiliate with them. A salesperson or politician cannot afford to piss off clients or constituents by defrauding or cheating them. There are certainly some salespeople and politicians that are ethically challenged, or more often make stupid moves that get them deeper and deeper into compromised or illegal situations, but few if any of these are people who are operating successfully behind some psychologically anomic mask where the client is a simply means to an end.
[/QUOTE]
That simply isn’t true. You are confusing psychopathy with simply being an asshole. Lots of psychostats appear to be very charming on the surface including extreme examples that include serial killers like Ted Bundy Of course, not all politicians and salespeople are like that but some are. Good psychopaths can excel by taking on a superficial person in these fields to manipulate people simply for their own benefit.
[QUOTE=Mr Buttons]
My SO has a friend that I consider to be a sociopath. She never seems to express genuine emotion, she’s always studying those around her before she gives a reaction of her own. She feels very uncomfortable 1 on 1 conversations, but thrives in a group environment where she can pick up on the mood and act along with it.
I have my misgivings about her, but from all that I can tell she is doing a fine job at our local humane society. She has a bond w/ animals that she just can’t quite form with people.
[/QUOTE]
Here’s my expertise: I have heard an expert talk about psycho/sociopaths* to a group of writers on two occasions. (Same expert.) All these are from my notes (not very good notes, but what I’ve got).
According to her, they can do very well and be apparently normal, and in fact they usually appear normal, although they won’t have close friends and they won’t have pets. Someone suggested politics–she agrees, but they can also succeed in business. Sales, not completely unlikely. Dictator, most definitely. According to her, there are more psycopaths than you probably think, but most of them will remain law-abiding citizens beneath anyone’s notice.
The current thinking is that psychopaths are born, not made. A bad home environment can cause a psychopath to go bad, and a good home environment may keep the psycho (path, abbreviated henceforth as psycho) on the straight and narrow because he or she wants to remain in the good graces of his/her family.
Not all bedwetters are psychos, not all fire-starters are psychos, and not all animal torturers are psychos, but the presence of all three of these traits pretty much guarantees the person is a psycho and should be watched/treated, not that treatment is likely to do a lot of good. But the fact that the psycho knows people are onto him/her can help.
Diagnosed psychos are men by a big ratio. (Thought I wrote it down, but can’t find it.) It tends to be the men who cause all the big trouble–serial killings and the like. Although I’m sure both sexes are the cause of lots of less dangerous trouble and angst.
*She said that psychologists/psychiatrists use “psychopath” and sociologists use “sociopath” but they mean essentially the same thing. She is a psychiatrist and neurologist who would like to have dissected Ted Bundy.
ETA: I originally came in to say that if someone can have a bond with animals, she probably is not a psychopath. According to this expert. I’m sure experts disagree.
I prefer the term Anti-Social Personality Disorder. Psychopath and sociopath have both been abused as badly as the dreaded split personality and mean very different things to different people, even people who should know better. Remember there are still many mental health personnel out there who believe in the legendary effects of the full moon.
Anyway, as in other personality disorders there will always be a subset of people who are successful in traditional terms. Also, of course, the negative aspects of one’s personality tend to be more in play under stress (poor health, deprivation) than when everything is going along tickety-boo. Since the vast majority of people with Anti-Social Personality Disorder wind up incarcerated, success for the remainder may be a relative term.
I don’t know any people who meet the definitions of the various patterns of behavior being tossed around in this thread, but there is no reason that these amoral, anempathic types can’t succeed in positions such as surgery. Everyone I know has a story of a surgeon that they’ve met who couldn’t connect with anyone. Who were often technically excellent doctors, but just were missing something on the human side.
An intelligent person may well see the intellectual need to work within the bounds of society, simply from what they’d describe as enlightened self-interest, without ever once granting those teeming masses any kind of consideration as persons in their own right.
Another vote for “State what definition of ‘sociopath’ first”. The version of “sociopath” I immediately thought of was “person without emotion”; and someone like that can’t “make good” to use the OP’s term. Because they simply don’t care. Someone without emotion can’t even play cards well, because they don’t care if they win or lose. They may or may not be violent, but they are always incapable of functioning in society; lacking emotions, they are driven merely to seek out the nearest and quickest pleasurable sensation regardless of the consequences to themselves or others. I recall the example of an accountant who lost his capacity for emotion due to brain damage, and spent all his money on prostitutes and drugs despite knowing ( and having the training to know just how bad he was screwing himself, and formerly being quite prudent ) that he’d run out of money, and wouldn’t even be able to get any more of the sex and drugs he was spending money on. Because concern for the future requires just that, concern, an emotion.