Did I ask for your “help”? No, actually I didn’t. I’ve had decades to sort this out to my own satisfaction. Suicide doesn’t merely “bother” bystanders, it can (though it does not always) cause mental trauma to bystanders. I have zero interest in engaging in a debate on this subject. I stated my view of the matter, agreed to disagree with others who disagreed with me, and am not going to come around to your viewpoint.
Aren’t laws rooted in morality and ethics? Stop acting like they’re unconnected.
As I said before. It must be nice to know for sure what’s best for you and what’s best for everyone else. No surprise there. Sometimes right, usually wrong, but never uncertain - huh?
Regardless of what the history of some laws may be, the purpose is (or should be) to make sure people have the freedom to do as they wish to the extent that it doesn’t interfere with the freedom of others. By definition laws based on morality are designed to interfere with the freedoms of others.
If you don’t want to debate in Great Debates, I’ve found not replying to be an excellent way to go about it.
Some laws are rooted in morality and ethics. Many aren’t. (Like the entire gamut of traffic laws aside from “don’t run people over”.) Presuming that the existence of a law shows a moral basis is like presuming that if there is a mammal it must be a cat.
For some reason I thought this was in In My Opinion - very well, I suppose I am obligated to debate this.
Nonetheless, I am HIGHLY offended by you condescending comment that you will “help” me understand your viewpoint that suicide is somehow OK. It’s not. It’s evil, just like murder. Which it is. It’s self-murder.
The difference seems to be that your default assumption is that suicide is morally neutral. Mine is that it is not.
Look, this sanitized hypothetical of the isolated person committing suicide is not borne out in reality. One of my neighbors blew his head off in circumstances where his six year old daughter was guaranteed to be the first to find the body - the notion that this is somehow NOT damaging is ludicrous. Not only is there the harm of the loss of her father and half the family’s income, but the lingering trauma of seeing her father’s headless body spouting blood and brains all over the bathroom. Yeah, that’s cool. People who jump in front of trains not only traumatized the passengers who might see the results, but also the drivers, who usually can’t stop the train due to physics, and who are immediately removed from the scene, subjected to drug testing, and very frequently sued by the suicide’s family. The stress of all that has ended careers, interrupting income to the drivers’ families. That’s a definite collection of harms. I know of a woman who killed herself with carbon monoxide fumes and left a three page note detailing how she was doing this in part to deliberately hurt dozens of people (listed by name).
So suicide is not someone unloved and orphaned tidying up their affairs and wandering away to off themselves in a neat manner that won’t inconvenience others. That’s not how it plays out in real life (though I’m sure there are a very very few exceptions). It does cause real harm that in many cases can’t be remedied. That’s why I have to oppose suicide as a “solution” or a “right” because it empirically it causes harm, in some cases extreme harm, to other people.
You don’t have to debate anything you don’t want to.
And I’m not saying that it’s “okay”. If nothing else it’s terrible for your health. But I maintain that the position that of all the reasons it might not be okay, the fact that it might bother [undefined set of family members, friends, associates, and bystanders] doesn’t necessarily trump the moral liberty granted by the fact it’s your own life to spend or end.
I understand that that is a factor that a person would likely base a decision not to snuff themselves on - I do so myself! But just because I choose to consider the feelings of the relatives doesn’t mean that there is a moral imperative there that dominates the consideration for everyone.
Nah. I just don’t choose to ignore the circumstances we’re dealing with here, nor do I completely downplay the individual’s rights over their own life, as you seem to be doing.
You’re arguing by anecdote pretty hard here. If there are ways of committing suicide that are “messy”, from a bystander-trauma perspective, and there are ways of doing so that aren’t, then suicide isn’t the problem, “messy” suicide is. Fallaciously conflating the issue may be convenient, but it’s still wrong.
And I’m highly offended at your notion that you feel you have anything to say about what I do with my life.
Yes, there it is… that absolute knowledge of “right” and “wrong” that you alone are priviliged to dictate. When we’re born all experience is simply that - a process. Before long, we learn that we are a separate entity from the outside world. There is “us”, and there is “everything else”. Then by the age of two or so, most of us learn that there is also a “me” for everyone else. They are not simply a part of your outside world - they are their own person with their own perspectives, feelings, and values. I hope you reach that understanding eventually.
Tell me, in the big book of good and evil (which apparently you have checked out), is it evil to “murder” a disabled person, a terminally ill person, your dog, a dolphin, a cow, a fish, a cockroach…? How am I to make these decisions without your ruling?
Morals are personal - not absolute.
So if I’m a single man with no children, and I choose to bury myself deep at sea, you would have no problem with that? Of course you would. The mess left behind isn’t your real concern. The fact that you don’t dictate what others do with their lives is your real concern - and not a healthy one.
Except that so many suicides are messy and traumatizing to bystanders.
If the messy, physically horrible ones were the rare exception perhaps we could leave them out of the equation but they’re not. Even if I could accept your reasoning (and I emphasize again that I can not do so) the actual practice seems to be a nasty, messy result that definitely harms other people. Unless you can produce some solid evidence that neat-and-tidy is the norm and messy the exception then I have to say that, whatever the theory, the practice is on the balance harmful to a lot of people.
That’s completely disengenuous. I wonder if you’ve convinced yourself of that reasoning. If you don’t like messy suicides, outlaw messy suicides. Of course that leaves you with the problem that nice tidy suicides are then legal - and that doesn’t fit with the sense of morality that you’re here to impose on the rest of the world.
The problem isn’t the mess, it’s the harm the suicide causes. Such as the trauma induced in a six year old finding her father’s headless body - just an example. Or what happens to train drivers when someone chooses their run for a suicide.
And criminalizing suicide isn’t necessarily the best solution. If the suicide is caused by mental illness - which is no small factor - then treatment is the appropriate response, not prosecution.
About the only situation where I could see a “right” to suicide is in the can of terminal illness with untreatable pain - but only AFTER every attempt has been made to alleviate that pain through current medical science. Such cases are rare.
Again, I doubt you’re being sincere. If that’s the case you should be fine with my plan (as a single person with no kids) to end my life in a biodegradable life raft and bury my body in the deep ocean. Is that cool? Or do you actually want to take control of what I do with my life?
About the only case where I can see you having a “right” to make that choice, is if it happens to be YOUR life.
ETA: once you establish that suicide is absolutely wrong, where exactly do you draw the line? I fly hang gliders, paragliders, skydive, etc. I’ve got buddies that base-jump with wing suits. Is that safe enough? You fly small planes (and don’t kid yourself, GA is nowhere near as safe as commercial transport). How about driving cars, riding motorcycles? Do we have to make helmets mandatory?
A couple things to this, then some general thoughts:
How would someone cut off their whole head to kill themselves? LOL sorry I’m not trying to be a jerk, just couldn’t help but think about that.
What if someone doesn’t want medical treatment? What if they decide they have had a full life and want to go on their way out peacefully once quality of life decays too far? Why does the government have a right to demand to keep you alive?
Debating whether or not people have a "right to suicide seems moot, as people will do whatever they damn well please mostly (especially someone in the frame of mind to kill themselves).
Saying people are “fated” to kill themselves is far more pessimistic than I care to be.
Clinical depression does not, ipso facto, lead to suicide. Not only that, but there are other reasons people kill themselves (sometimes people are suffering from psychosis and perhaps they think death is a portal to another dimension/alien planet/whatever). Even those people can’t be said to be “fated” to suicide.
People in a place willing to kill themselves have given up on themselves, the world, and have no faith left in anything (not talking spiritually, just in general). There is always a chance for intervention, but if the individual chooses to not accept help, they have doomed themselves. I wouldn’t call that fate as much as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
“I have nothing left to live for, so I should just die”
“Wait! What about xyz? Isn’t that still important to you?”
“Well, it was important, but now I just don’t care about anything.”
They’ve already made up their mind there is no reason to live, and unless they are willing to entertain the possibility that their assessment might be wrong, then yeah their “fate is sealed.”
But to say that people are predetermined to commit suicide is silly.
I’m not sure how the author intended it exactly though since it’s out of context. Any help on that?
I had a friend commit suicide this past summer. It was an impulsive decision that I’m sure she would have regretted, had she survived. However, I can appreciate that it was her decision, and she was a person who struggled a lot with life, and with her mental illness. Some part of me is happy she is never going to suffer again.
Broomstick, how traumuatizing most suicides are to other people who might witness them or find the body is a good point and actually something I hadn’t considered before. In my friend’s case, her boyfriend found her hanging. That’s not something you can ever really get over…
I doubt your ability to make suicide that neat and tidy, that’s the point here. Very few people set out to sea in a biodegradable raft, many more jump in front of trains, shoot themselves, poison themselves, jump off buildings… in some cases causing physical property damage and physical injury to others on top of the inevitable mental trauma to others.
You’re arguing we should set the rules by exceptions, rather than for the average. It’s like arguing there should be no posted speed limits as drivers are the best judge of conditions and their own capabilities… but they aren’t. So we have speed limits, and those limits are not set by what the rare and exceptional driver can do but rather by what the average driver can do.
You also ignore that in a subset of cases part of the motivation for suicide is, in fact, to deliberately hurt others. To make someone “pay” for some past hurt or neglect.
The difference between those activities and suicide is that the people engaged in those high-risk pursuits don’t intend to die and in overwhelming numbers work to minimize the chance of death while pursuing said things. For the suicide, however, death is the end goal.
“Thanks” for stating the obvious, I’ve buried my share of fellow pilots and on more than one occasion helped clean up the mess after the NTSB was gone. I’m well aware there are risks there.
For motorcycles, yes, I do believe helmets should be mandatory, just as seat belt are mandatory in cars. That’s why I own and wear a motorcycle helmet even though they are not required in my state. For that matter, I also wear a helmet while riding my bicycle. That’s because I’m not so childish as to think such elemental safety equipment is somehow impinging on my freedom and liberty.
Point blank shotgun blast more or less does the job. It’s not a neat and pretty line of demarcation, but it does the job.
That’s called “hospice”. We have those. You have the well-established right to refuse any and all medical treatment, but I don’t view that as suicide as it is not taking action to kill yourself. I am not enthused about medical euthanasia because I think it is too prone to abuse - another case where the theory might make the option attractive but the actual practice could be disastrous. It was, however, an area where I specifically stated that there was some basis for suicide as a morally OK option.
I don’t know where people got the notion that something being a “right” was an immutable law of physics such as gravity that could not be violated. You have a right to live, but that doesn’t shield you from someone intent on murder, does it?
That is specifically why I said “mental illness” and not “clinical depression”.
I don’t guess we’re going to succeed in explaining to you why you don’t get to decide what’s right for everyone else. Perhaps we can try this… I don’t think you (or anyone) should be allowed to fly private planes. It sometimes hurts others, and is therefore evil and wrong.
Aside from the fact I don’t for a minute believe that you actually hold that opinion, I am well aware of the fact that there are many people who truly do believe that.
The difference is that people who fly private airplanes, by and large, do not do so with intent to harm themselves or others, and the vast majority of such flights end uneventfully.
Suicides and wannabe suicides, however, do intend harm - to themselves definitely and sometimes to others - and even when not successful do impose harm upon others. Seriously you come across like a drunk whining he’s not “free” to drive while intoxicated.
