Are souls fireproof.

Great Debates
21

I left out Universal Salvationism (or just Universalism) which says that God truly is infinitely kind and loving, and therefore no one has to burn in hell. I knew a guy who was a strong Universalist; he believed that even Satan would, in the very end, be saved, and return to God’s grace. It’s very difficult for some people to reconcile “hell” and “God’s perfect love.”

I agree that they are over-depicted. I personally know a handful, and they aren’t really any fun to talk theology with. Their views are congealed and clotted: there isn’t any room at all for them to think They are the kind of people who insist, “There are no contradictions in the Bible.” (Yes, there are: dozens of 'em.)

For years, I went around asking: “What would have happened if Jesus had succumbed to Satan’s temptation on the tower?” Satan showed Jesus the world and offered him kingship over it.

Uninteresting answers are: “You shall not tempt the Lord.” “Oh, he wasn’t really tempted.” “Satan is only a worm beside Jesus.” “It could not have happened.”

But every once in a rare while, I’d get an interesting answer. “Well…Jesus would probably have raised an army, defeated Rome, defeated Egypt, defeated everybody, all the way to India and China and North and South America and…everybody. But it would all be for nothing, because there would be no salvation for our sins. Jesus would, when he died, sit by Satan’s side in hell, not by God’s side in heaven.”

I love talking theology with people who are both interested and interesting!

22

Heh, great story from the writer Luke. Makes Abraham look like a jerk though. It’s clear he is judging the brothers he’s never met and yet that is not his role to assume according to the bible. Him not taking every opportunity to get someone to repent seems a bit lazy and counter productive for someone in the service of a loving God especially considering the consequences. Even God doesn’t judge until the very end. I’d assume he’s still working for souls until then, no?

Hmm, he’s waking up the souls of the dead during the resurrection of the dead so wouldn’t this occur long after the story above or are some souls resting and some are allowed to hold heavenly conversations?

I’m not a hell guy myself though. As stated earlier I’d be a separate from God kind of guy instead. I can’t get behind or believe in something that would be as cruel as the eternal damnation guy. I just can’t. If God is as truly evil as the stories can make him appear then separation would be good for both of us. I don’t believe God’s that evil though.

I’m much more inclined to believe that people are really bad at understanding parables, allegories etc.

23

I really think we’d have a blast talking theology. The debate about Satan is where I lead and get similar answers. So, when Satan is about to be cast into the pit of fire what if he sincerely confessed his sins and begged God’s forgiveness would he be spared. I always get the same answers “this can’t happen” so it’s not a valid question. That indeed is no fun at all.

The bit about Jesus and the devil reminds me of The Last Temptation of Christ which I really loved because I agree with it’s premise, you aren’t sacrificing something if you don’t have it to sacrifice in the first place.

This post really isn’t about having fun. It’s about understanding. I want to know what shapes these peoples thinking as I can’t wrap my brain around how they think these things.

I did a similar thing with teapartiers. I asked them to give me book examples I can read that would explain to me where they were coming from. I read about 6 books with no luck but the books I read were just reaffirming not making a case. They assumed that you started out with these beliefs which I didn’t. I still don’t know anything about the thought process involved. I probably never will.

24

I wanted to separate this out. I knew one of these guys. He was my brother in law. I knew he was in a pretty cultlike church but not until long after he died did I realize he was one of Herbert Armstrongs believers. Well, I knew that he followed Armstrong but not who Armstrong was.

This was my favorite person to discuss religion with ever. He was not judgemental but he pushed his point. He was the most knowledgeable lay persons I’d ever met but it didn’t surprise me. These folks took laptops and stuff to church. They were really really serious. Being in God’s government requires preparation.

Though he never admitted it to me he enjoyed our discussions as much as I did and he admitted to my sister that sometimes he won some and sometimes I got him. I’d agree with this.

Whenever we’d get started everyone else would roll their eyes and leave the room for the adults to talk. Lol. We kept each other sharp and could discuss our thoughts without fear of the other side’s reaction. It was a great experience.

25

I realizing I’m kinda tangenting my OP but this is a newer concept I’ve been thinking about. This almost certainly means that copious amounts have been written about the subject I just haven’t been exposed to yet.

I read an article about the devil that stated that the devil doesn’t have a book like God does then it hit me. Can’t the bible be considered his book?

Here is why I say this. The original sin was for eating of the tree of good and evil. God saw this as “a bad thing”. Really, what is the bible? A list of what is good and evil and it’s been used for unspeakable things in the pursuit of doing the right thing.

It seems that God had made the correct call so calling the Bible his book seems a bit disingenious to me. It’s like a mockery of his very will.

Anyway. This is only the second time I’ve laid this out and the first time was met with bewilderment. I haven’t heard a real counterargument since the argument is solely in my brain. I wonder what the counter argument would be.

26

Some people can’t engage with a contra-factual hypothetical, and that’s kind of sad. (I’m an atheist, so all of this is “contra-factual” to me; but I enjoy delving into the ideas, as abstract ideas.)

I have two different friends – and they are very good and close friends – who enjoy personal revelations from Jesus. Christ talks to them, just as clearly as you and I are talking. It isn’t “faith” for them; they know, because Jesus has said so, directly to them, in person. Argument is not possible; they smile politely and ignore it. They know.

To me, personally, the killer in this is that Jesus never says anything concrete to them. Jesus never says anything they didn’t already know. Jesus can’t help them with their homework. Jesus won’t pinpoint the location of lost cities, or tell them what’s in the missing manuscripts of Aristophanes. Jesus only gives them platitudes. “Have faith in me, for I am the truth and the way.”

This makes any kind of rational debate absolutely impossible. In essence, I think they are insane, and they think I am insane. Communication comes to an absolute screeching halt.

But…at least we all know why.

I’ve mentioned this before, so I apologize for the repetition… I used to be a very angry anti-theist. I never set fire to a church…but in my heart, I really damned wanted to. I hated Christianity. But on a BBS discussion board much like this one, I met a very wonderful, kind, patient (patience of a saint!) minister, who took the time and effort to engage with me. He talked me out of my hatred. He couldn’t convert me to the faith, but he healed me of my rage. Very nice chap, and I wish I were still in touch with him.

They aren’t all Pat Robertson. Some of 'em are G.K. Chesterton and C.S. Lewis. (Even Chesterton had his flaws… Poisonously anti-Semitic… So who’s perfect?)

27

I’m in a really weird position. I don’t believe in a God in the traditional sense but I absolutely believe the spiritual ideals that Jesus advocated for and consider the specific stories as merely a framework in which to express these ideas. I like the brand of spiritualism that Jesus advocated but I really don’t see them followed very much.

I obviously have studied christianity and other religions and until a few years ago felt like I was a christian “at heart” but wouldn’t say I was because I do not relate to the ideals I hear the christians of today are talking about. Then I just admitted I’m not a christian and if their God exists and takes offense then I’d have to deal with it. *

But my spiritual side really never changed. So, if my ideas were perfectly acceptable for the kingdom of heaven before and the only thing that has changed is me not saying the magic words then yeah, I don’t want to follow that God.

*The exact reason was that I couldn’t accept that Jesus died for my sins. I don’t accept that story at all. I never asked for that and if I was created by an omnipowerful creature with a fatal flaw that required him to kill somebody else to save then I don’t accept that. I know I’m not worth anyone sacrificing for and especially not as part of somebody elses battle.

Thanks to Satans book I know what’s right and wrong and I will do the best I can to follow whats right. If it’s impossible to reach an acceptable level of redemption without someone sacrificing themselves to their own father (The bible writers seemed to be obsessed with parents offing their own kids ) then I don’t want that creature to redeem me. I don’t consider that sacrifice as noble. It’s kinda creepy and sick and I see no point in believing something that makes me feel that way.

Yes, I believe that believing is a choice. I choose to believe that Jesus’ ideals are worth living by. I choose not to believe I’m doomed if I don’t.

28

Of course not. I’ve been to many Cajun restaurants and enjoyed…
Oh, wait, that was blackened sole.
Never mind.

29

So, not damned if you do and not damned if you don’t.

Well isn’t that special.

30

Niven and Pournelle also posited that you can get out of Hell, which they characterize as “the violent ward for the theologically insane.” If you can overcome your theologically violent tendencies, you can leave hell for Purgatory, which, I assume, would be a residential care facility.

31

When I was about 12ish, I saw a PBS special about the Hiroshima bombing. One of the things I remembered were the shadows – the silhouettes of the victims burned into a nearby wall. That stuck with me, these shadow ghosts, burned into the walls. I thought that maybe these were their literal spirits, forcibly merged with matter for all time. I imagined other souls were probably just completely vaporized with no trace at all.

This all made nuclear war even more terrifying, the thought that our everlasting souls might not survive a nuke.

sb

32

I’m a Christian, and believe in life after death. But I take issue with one of the first sentences in the OP: “Hell is described as a place of fire and brimstone where the souls of evil people are eternally tormented for believing bad things.” It’s not described like that in the Bible. Hell, as a distinct place from Heaven, would be a rather foreign concept to first-century Jews. Not all Jews even believed in resurrection after death at all.

I could be wrong, but I side with the Universalists. If God’s desire is for all humankind to be saved (and it is, according to the Bible), and if God is sovereign over all creation, then I don’t see how anyone can end up separated from God for all eternity. Eventually, in this life or the next, everyone will be drawn into the irresistible love and grace of God.

33

C.S. Lewis similarly posited separation from God in the Great Divorce, but not as banishment. He saw it as self-imposed exile – a consequence of humanity’s free will.

What you were seeing were the parts of the wall that were less burned, because a person had been in the way.

34

The soul will continue to live regardless of what happens to the body. The Bible tells us that the saved will have new heavenly bodies. It does not describe in detail how these bodies will be but one can conclude they will be in the image of God, that is head, arms, torso, legs, etc. We will not exist as a “mist” or cloud-like. We will recognize each other and interact with each other. The Bible also clearly states we will not marry nor be given in marriage.
The souls of the damned will also continue to live, but in Sheol, Hades, lake of fire, Gehenna, Hell, or whatever name you choose to call it. There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that someone can “work their way” out of hell. It ain’t there. Once you check in you do not check out. It’s for an eternity, which, by the way, is a concept that we cannot fully grasp. Yes, we know the dictionary definition of eternity, but we cannot actually comprehend its meaning. There are varying degrees of punishment I believe, not necessarily like Dante’s Inferno, but the best of hell will be unimaginably horrible.

35

My 12 year old self would be relieved to hear that.

So eternal punishment for temporal sins. Awesome.

sb

36

Why would God outsource eternal punishment? In the Old Testament he never seemed hesitant about doling it out, for a shorted period maybe (but long enough to kill plenty of people).

37

I do believe that the parts of the Bible that are meant to be taken as literally true, are literally true. With thousands of people registered as users/members of the SDMB, I would guess that there are a few others on the message board as well.

38

Oddball 92:

According to Jewish tradition, a verse at the end of Isaiah implies that only for certain sinners will punishment be eternal, and for the others, the punishment period lasts for no more than one year.

39

Not necessarily, depends heavily on which branch of Christianity you are talking about.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/hell-getting-makeover-catholics-jesuits-call-it-painful-state-but-not-sulfurous.html?pagewanted=all

*But now the Catholic authorities in Rome have presented a strikingly different (and seemingly modern) picture of eternal damnation.

By their account, hell is best understood as the condition of total alienation from all that is good, hopeful and loving in the world. What’s more, this condition is chosen by the damned themselves, the ultimate exercise of free will, not a punishment engineered by God.

Hell ‘‘is not a ‘place’ but a ‘state,’ a person’s ‘state of being,’ in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God,’’ declared La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine based in Rome and closely tied to the Vatican, in a long editorial in July.

The magazine also stated that it is not God who inflicts pain ''through angels or demons as is illustrated in many paintings or is read in the ‘Divine Comedy,’ ‘’ but the sinner who triggers his own punishment by deliberately rejecting God’s grace, thereby entering a great state of pain.*

In some, the punishment is being deprived of G-ds grace, just a featureless boring grey place. (A variation on this is those who lead or force others into sin are tormented- ie Hitler.)

In others, the torment is not everlasting, but only until you really truly repent.

So, before you go asking questions, perhaps a brief reading and education would be in order.

40

Same reason major corporations outsource stuff. The Devil has a workforce that works for less than slave wages and they will do work angels don’t want to do.