Are souls fireproof.

[Oddball_92]

@Scarecrow_s_Brain

My 12 year old self would be relieved to hear that.

So eternal punishment for temporal sins. Awesome.

sb

Eternal punishment is for unrepented sin be it “temporal” or not.

God’s word is not just for the children. No doubt you are much more mature, sophisticated, educated, and more “enlightened” than you were when you were 12.

[XT]

@Disgruntled_Penguin

This is for our christians on the board. Let me explain.

Hell is described as a place of fire and brimstone where the souls of evil people are eternally tormented for believing bad things. How does this even work with a soul?

I wouldn’t assume our souls are flammable. It seems like a bit of a defect. Who created us God or M Night Shyamalan?

Do the souls of people who died in fires survive or are these lost souls?

As horrific as I find the thought of any entity of power condemning anyone to an eternity of torment it’s even more frightening to postulate that this entity would go through the bother of creating a new body for them to expressly torment them for eternity.

I’ll admit, I’d never considered this line of thought but how do you rationalize the tortures of hell? What methods can eternally inflict harm on a soul and was it only invented for the express purpose of said torture?

I realize I may be talking a bit tongue in cheek here but it’s an honest question which I’ve never really seen addressed. Considering I may be heading there, while hopefully not in the ‘need answers fast’ category, it’s something to concern myself with.

For those christians who don’t believe in hell, I get that but there are a lot that do believe it literally and this is for them. How does it work in your mind?

Maybe it’s not real fire? Perhaps it’s mystical fire to hurt but not consume mystical soul, um, thingies? I always thought of the hell fire thing as metaphorical, though I know there are folks who take the Bible as literal. But then there are people who think the world is flat and that magical CIA/Jewish alien ninjas brought down the WTCs on 9/11 at the behest of a genious GW Bush who wanted to use it to rule the world! MUAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

Er, sorry…got carried away there. Anyway, maybe the ‘fire’ is the same stuff as the ‘soul’…it’s not real or it’s mystical God Stuff, since it doesn’t have any mass or detectable energy. In that sense, souls are fireproof, since if you could burn one (with real fire) you could detect it, and if you could detect it you could study it using science and experimentation.

[wolfpup]

@Oddball_92

The soul will continue to live regardless of what happens to the body. The Bible tells us that the saved will have new heavenly bodies. It does not describe in detail how these bodies will be but one can conclude they will be in the image of God, that is head, arms, torso, legs, etc. We will not exist as a “mist” or cloud-like. We will recognize each other and interact with each other. The Bible also clearly states we will not marry nor be given in marriage.

Will these heavenly bodies be anatomically complete? I mean, OK, no marriage, but we can still have sex, right?

[Mangetout]

@Disgruntled_Penguin

I am looking for a serious answer and I do know most Christians do not believe the Bible to be literal. This is why I’m asking those that do.

I have already posted regarding separation from God while this was being posted. Can you elaborate more on this?

I would say that even Christians who believe in a literal hell are not thinking about actual fire in the sense of burning wood or oil, but some sort of supernatural-realm type fire that is, I dunno - the platonic essence of flame, without the actual incandescent atoms.

[Oddball_92]

@wolfpup

Will these heavenly bodies be anatomically complete? I mean, OK, no marriage, but we can still have sex, right?

The fact that no one will marry or be given in marriage may, in itself, be heaven for some.
The Bible does not specifically say there will be no sex (that I am aware of), but God’s design for sex was meant for married couples…that is a man and woman. Humans have, from the beginning, not adhered to this principal of course, but that’s what it was meant to be. So, one can conclude there will not be sex, but there will be no desire either.

[Shagnasty]

Souls are not fireproof and it is well-documented. Stop, drop and roll doesn’t work in Hell!

[gigi]

@Disgruntled_Penguin

I’ll admit, I’d never considered this line of thought but how do you rationalize the tortures of hell? What methods can eternally inflict harm on a soul and was it only invented for the express purpose of said torture?..
For those christians who don’t believe in hell, I get that but there are a lot that do believe it literally and this is for them. How does it work in your mind?

Just as heaven is union with God and complete eternal happiness, hell is separation from God and eternal sadness/emptiness/regret. God doesn’t send us there, we send ourselves there.

Our souls are separated from our bodies when we die but at the second coming our bodies will be glorified and reunited with our souls.

Beyond that, I figure God will take care of it!

[Measure_for_Measure]

In one of the staff reports, the evolution of the Christian concept of hell is discussed: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1853/who-invented-hell

Also this thread:

Is there Biblical support for the concept of Hell?

Sample:

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

The Christian concept of Hell as a place of eternal, conscious torment, is not in the Bible

(tomndebb begged to differ.)

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@QuickSilver

So, not damned if you do and not damned if you don’t.

Well isn’t that special.

Not exactly. I don’t fear being damned if my beliefs turn out to be false. Not one whit. I can’t heartfeltly follow something simply for fear.

Not sure that makes me special but if it makes you feel good to think that of me, thats perfectly fine. I don’t feel hurt by your judgement of my relationship with God. I won’t judge your’s because the doctrine I follow won’t allow it.

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

You would agree that if you agree to follow someones doctrine then you should take his words seriously no?

It’s still a game. I am certain that there are things he said that I don’t follow but that’s kinda why I don’t want to judge others. I get absolutely zero benefit that I can notice by doing so. It just doesn’t make me feel good and I’m not trying to save anyone elses soul either.

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Scarecrow_s_Brain

When I was about 12ish, I saw a PBS special about the Hiroshima bombing. One of the things I remembered were the shadows – the silhouettes of the victims burned into a nearby wall. That stuck with me, these shadow ghosts, burned into the walls. I thought that maybe these were their literal spirits, forcibly merged with matter for all time. I imagined other souls were probably just completely vaporized with no trace at all.

This all made nuclear war even more terrifying, the thought that our everlasting souls might not survive a nuke.

sb

I think that they would if they are designed to stand the flames of hell.Bet it felt similar as well.

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Skammer

I’m a Christian, and believe in life after death. But I take issue with one of the first sentences in the OP: “Hell is described as a place of fire and brimstone where the souls of evil people are eternally tormented for believing bad things.” It’s not described like that in the Bible. Hell, as a distinct place from Heaven, would be a rather foreign concept to first-century Jews. Not all Jews even believed in resurrection after death at all.

I could be wrong, but I side with the Universalists. If God’s desire is for all humankind to be saved (and it is, according to the Bible), and if God is sovereign over all creation, then I don’t see how anyone can end up separated from God for all eternity. Eventually, in this life or the next, everyone will be drawn into the irresistible love and grace of God.

You’re preaching to the choir. I don’t believe what I wrote in that OP. I was questioning those that do. In fact, the story of the prodigal son leads me to believe a lot closer to what you wrote above. Fathers not going to abandon his children period.

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Tom_Tildrum

C.S. Lewis similarly posited separation from God in the Great Divorce, but not as banishment. He saw it as self-imposed exile – a consequence of humanity’s free will.

That’s what bothers me about those pushing their christian ideals in the congress. How on Earth isn’t it abrogating humans free will if you make a sin illegal? The whole point of free will was that we had that free choice not that we were legally forced to.

This is affirmed by the rend unto caeser what is caesars … quote and by the demand that Adam and Eve not even be able to know what was or was not a sin.

This, I’m going to save your soul whether you like it or not to me is extremely anti the will of the father.

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Oddball_92

The soul will continue to live regardless of what happens to the body. The Bible tells us that the saved will have new heavenly bodies. It does not describe in detail how these bodies will be but one can conclude they will be in the image of God, that is head, arms, torso, legs, etc. We will not exist as a “mist” or cloud-like. We will recognize each other and interact with each other. The Bible also clearly states we will not marry nor be given in marriage.
The souls of the damned will also continue to live, but in Sheol, Hades, lake of fire, Gehenna, Hell, or whatever name you choose to call it. There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that someone can “work their way” out of hell. It ain’t there. Once you check in you do not check out. It’s for an eternity, which, by the way, is a concept that we cannot fully grasp. Yes, we know the dictionary definition of eternity, but we cannot actually comprehend its meaning. There are varying degrees of punishment I believe, not necessarily like Dante’s Inferno, but the best of hell will be unimaginably horrible.

Thank you for this. Now, an honest question. Does it bother you to worship an entity who is perfectly good with condemning his children to eternal punishment because this is not how I ever felt the entity I chose to follow worked and if he did, I wouldn’t follow it. In my mind it’s evil and I will not follow evil. Again though, I don’t believe in the hell forever view.

And again, I am not a christian though I believe in much of the christian theology. Absolutely I can pick or choose since I’m not claiming to be something that I’m not. Also understand that I don’t believe that any of this is literally the truth in the way we can understand. It’s all a metaphor for how we fit in the scheme of life to me and that’s easier to do by having a frame of reference like the bible ( among other books ). I coulf just as easily frame this by the stories of Odin and Thor if I had grown up in that culture.

I can’t see a creator creating a smorgasbord of cultures then only giving the truth to one of them and telling the rest deal with it or be damned forever.

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Boyo_Jim

Why would God outsource eternal punishment? In the Old Testament he never seemed hesitant about doling it out, for a shorted period maybe (but long enough to kill plenty of people).

I’m assuming he’d be really busy listening to all the adulation of all the grateful souls he has saved, none of which will apparently not give one damn about those loved ones who were doomed.

It’s eithher that or they suffer as well and I don’t think there is supposed to be any suffering in heaven. Not sure what the official read is on this but these souls will exist.

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Velocity

I do believe that the parts of the Bible that are meant to be taken as literally true, are literally true. With thousands of people registered as users/members of the SDMB, I would guess that there are a few others on the message board as well.

Thanks Velocity. I really was hoping I wasn’t talking to the wall and that I could get this to the right people.

What do you mean about the parts thaat are meant to be literally true? Do you mean the histories, which I agree with you on or are you talking the spiritual stuff and if the latter how do you know what is meant to be taken that way?

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@cmkeller

Oddball 92:

According to Jewish tradition, a verse at the end of Isaiah implies that only for certain sinners will punishment be eternal, and for the others, the punishment period lasts for no more than one year.

Do you know the verse number? I’d love to read it for myself. That is very interesting.

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@DrDeth

Not necessarily, depends heavily on which branch of Christianity you are talking about.
Eternal Damnation: What does the Bible Really Teach?

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/18/arts/hell-getting-makeover-catholics-jesuits-call-it-painful-state-but-not-sulfurous.html?pagewanted=all

*But now the Catholic authorities in Rome have presented a strikingly different (and seemingly modern) picture of eternal damnation.

By their account, hell is best understood as the condition of total alienation from all that is good, hopeful and loving in the world. What’s more, this condition is chosen by the damned themselves, the ultimate exercise of free will, not a punishment engineered by God.

Hell ‘‘is not a ‘place’ but a ‘state,’ a person’s ‘state of being,’ in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God,’’ declared La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine based in Rome and closely tied to the Vatican, in a long editorial in July.

The magazine also stated that it is not God who inflicts pain ''through angels or demons as is illustrated in many paintings or is read in the ‘Divine Comedy,’ ‘’ but the sinner who triggers his own punishment by deliberately rejecting God’s grace, thereby entering a great state of pain.*

In some, the punishment is being deprived of G-ds grace, just a featureless boring grey place. (A variation on this is those who lead or force others into sin are tormented- ie Hitler.)

In others, the torment is not everlasting, but only until you really truly repent.

So, before you go asking questions, perhaps a brief reading and education would be in order.

I always believe in reading and education but it means squat in my OP. I know there are other views. I am familiar with many of them. The one I am not is the one that I am asking about and your reading has not enlightened me on this one bit.

I’m not upset about it though because as you said, it’s another data point for me to read and be educated by but it’s not what I was asking.

I have said that I am only interested in this one subset of christianity before, no? If not,I apologize but I do not put all christians in the same boat. I don’t own that broad of a brush.

[Trinopus]

@Disgruntled_Penguin

That’s what bothers me about those pushing their christian ideals in the congress. How on Earth isn’t it abrogating humans free will if you make a sin illegal? The whole point of free will was that we had that free choice not that we were legally forced to. . . .

You may have the free will to commit murder…but the rest of us are not bound to stand by and respect that choice!

Christianity acknowledges the existence of free will…but it is still a religion of law. There’s no conflict with Christian ideals in making certain kinds of sin illegal.

(Christianity goes farther, and suggests we are judged on the basis of our thoughts. Viewing someone with lust is as bad as physical adultery/fornication. The police can’t patrol our thoughts, but God is said to. God’s moral law applies even when no possible human legislation can.)

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@XT

Maybe it’s not real fire? Perhaps it’s mystical fire to hurt but not consume mystical soul, um, thingies? I always thought of the hell fire thing as metaphorical, though I know there are folks who take the Bible as literal. But then there are people who think the world is flat and that magical CIA/Jewish alien ninjas brought down the WTCs on 9/11 at the behest of a genious GW Bush who wanted to use it to rule the world! MUAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

Er, sorry…got carried away there. Anyway, maybe the ‘fire’ is the same stuff as the ‘soul’…it’s not real or it’s mystical God Stuff, since it doesn’t have any mass or detectable energy. In that sense, souls are fireproof, since if you could burn one (with real fire) you could detect it, and if you could detect it you could study it using science and experimentation.

Made me smile.

It also made me think of The Tick vs Science where the mad scientist had created a heatless flame and the Tick looks puzzled “Eegads man, what’s the point?”

[Disgruntled_Penguin]

@Mangetout

I would say that even Christians who believe in a literal hell are not thinking about actual fire in the sense of burning wood or oil, but some sort of supernatural-realm type fire that is, I dunno - the platonic essence of flame, without the actual incandescent atoms.

Really, that makes sense. The use of the word fire is more of a metaphor for something that they had no words to describe. Did this describe what you meant?