Are the Seahawks violating Texas A&M's "12th Man" trademark?

[Interrobang]

First things first: though I’m in Seattle, I couldn’t care less about football, even when the Seahawks are in the World Series. Superbowl. Whatever. So I don’t have a dog in this fight. And much of the info I have, while gathered from a few sources, comes from this article from a local paper, the PI.

Here’s the deal: recently, a flag with the number 12 on it has been flying on various flagpoles around town, including the one on top of the Space Needle. Why? As a thank-you to Seahawks fans, the “12th man” on the team. Nowhere on these flags does the phrase “12th man” appear, however.

Apparently, Texas A&M is the place where “12th man” was coined, all the way back in 1922. In 1990, they trademarked the phrase.

Also apparently, Seattle has been invoking the idea of the 12th man since 1984. And in the last month or so, the phrase “12th man” has been invoked in a lot of press coverage of the Seahawks’ assault on immortality.

As far as I can tell, however, no official Seahawks merchandise uses the phrase “12th man.” And 12 is a retired Seahawks number because of Steve Largent. And you can’t trademark “12.” (Or at least, the Aggies didn’t.)

Recently, A&M has filed suit to get the Seahawks to stop violating their trademark.

Like I said, I’m not a football guy. Nor am I a lawyer. So I ask the Dopers who are more familiar with sports and law:

1. Are the Seahawks themselves violating A&M’s trademark?
2. Are the Aggies protesting too little, too late from a legal perspective?
3. What do you think the outcome of this lawsuit’s going to be?
4. Do I have my facts right?

Any enlightenment would be great. I have to admit that I find this whole trademark controversy about 100 times more interesting than the football game itself.

[Tikki]

@Interrobang!?

First things first: though I’m in Seattle, I couldn’t care less about football, even when the Seahawks are in the World Series. Superbowl. Whatever.

Wow. I’m not the only one? Yay! My sister is having a Superbowl party this weekend and even with the offer of free food, I’m not intending to go. That’s how unimpressed I am with all the hoorah going on over the Seahawks.

I just heard about this infringement thing today and I wasn’t really listening, due to my lack of interest, so I don’t really know enough to form an opinion. However, my friend and I went to a sports store in Southcenter today because she had to have a shirt for her and her son. While I waited for her outside the shop I noticed the Seahawks shirts they had in the windows said “The 12th Fan!” Or maybe they weren’t authorized by the Seahawks at all. I don’t recall seeing their logo. Anyway it sounds like a quick fix to avoid a potential A&M lawsuit and still rake in the big Superbowl bucks to me.

[mhendo]

Maybe they should also sue the cricket world, because the term Twelfth Man is a cricket term for:

A substitute fielder (and drinks waiter) for the chosen eleven. If called upon to play, he is permitted to field wherever he is needed, but can neither bat nor bowl.

[explore_like_dora]

Along the lines of mhendo’s post, perhaps they should also be suing this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth_Man

I’m a big Seahawks fan, so I’m the most biased guy in the world on this matter, but, pfft… to hell with A&M. They’ve got nothing, and I hope Seattle gives them the smackdown.

[RealityChuck]

@Interrobang!?

1. Are the Seahawks themselves violating A&M’s trademark?
2. Are the Aggies protesting too little, too late from a legal perspective?
3. What do you think the outcome of this lawsuit’s going to be?
4. Do I have my facts right?
   .

IANAL, but:

1. That’s the court’s decision, but I’d say the Seahawks are in a bad position. Assuming the Aggies have registered the trademark (I don’t see it in the database), they have first claim to using it in connection with football. (It probably would not apply to other uses).
2. Not necessarily. You are required to defend your trademark when you become aware of any violation. It’s perfectly possible that no one at A&M was aware that the Seahawks were using it until now.
3. The Aggies by a touchdown.
4. Essentially.

[delphica]

Huh, I honestly thought this was one of those things that had evolved into general sports usage, but what do I know? The Buffalo Bills added “The 12th Man” to the stadium’s Wall of Fame in 1992. It’s still there, so maybe Texas A&M hasn’t picked up on it yet. You’d think Sam Adams (brewer, patriot, defensive tackle – as I like to call him) would have phoned it in to the alumni office. The Wall of Fame is posted in enormous letters around the inside of the stadium, so it’s very visible (as opposed to a Small Plaque of Fame kept in the administrative offices or something).

[Neurotik]

I think Texas A&M is out of luck. The 12th Man is ubiquitous in football lore and lots of teams make reference to it. By this time, it’s probably common usage - especially if they only trademarked it in 1990.

[delphica]

Look what a little google will do for you – Texas A&M has apparently hasasked the Bills to stop using the 12th Man, but it’s unclear to me what the result was.

“We had similar situations with the Buffalo Bills and the Chicago Bears and they responded quickly to stop using our 12th man trademark,” Byrne says, “but Seattle has been slow-rolling us.”

I don’t think they’ve actually stopped, though.

[Cervaise]

@Tikki

I’m not the only one? Yay!

There are quite a few of us, actually. I’m having a couple of people over to watch a Hitchcock movie and cook something fancy for dinner.

@RealityChuck

It’s perfectly possible that no one at A&M was aware that the Seahawks were using it until now.

I read in another local article, which I can’t find now, that the Seahawks quietly contacted the university a few years ago to see about arranging some sort of licensing or usage agreement, which the university rejected. Assuming the article and my memory are both accurate, this bodes poorly for the respondents.

[Aguecheek]

I…will be watching, oddly enough. I made a deal with a coworker that I will watch the Superbowl on the condition that he watches the Olympic gold medal hockey game with me.

In regards to the legality of the whole silly situation, I can’t claim any legal expertise whatsoever. However, a columnist for the Seattle Times has noted that the phrase ‘Twelfth Man’ has not been copyrighted. Just ‘12th Man.’

So if the team really just wants to get on with things without having to fight an annoying little lawsuit, they’ve got an out.

[Robot_Arm]

@Interrobang!?

As far as I can tell, however, no official Seahawks merchandise uses the phrase “12th man.” And 12 is a retired Seahawks number because of Steve Largent. And you can’t trademark “12.” (Or at least, the Aggies didn’t.)

Steve Largent wore number 80. The Seahawks retired the number 12 strictly in honor of the fans.

And they did that before Texas A&M registered their trademark. (1984, I think.) Doesn’t some sort of “prior art” apply to trademarks as it does with patents? If someone was using the phrase before it was legally protected, can you stop them 20 years later?

[picunurse]

[hijack] Do you know why the Aggies didn’t go to Padre Island for spring break last year?

They heard there was a war in the gulf.

[Interrobang]

@RealityChuck

1. That’s the court’s decision, but I’d say the Seahawks are in a bad position. Assuming the Aggies have registered the trademark (I don’t see it in the database), they have first claim to using it in connection with football. (It probably would not apply to other uses).

This is one of my big questions – at least several people I’ve talked to who know a lot more than I do about the Seahawks say that the Seahawks themselves don’t use the phrase “12th man” in their marketing or merchandising. They use the number 12, and let general conversation attach the phrase “12th man.”

I don’t know if that’s true or not, because no news articles I’ve read have been that clear on the matter.

Also, that Steve Largent misinformation I had? That just goes to show how much I know about football.

[BobLibDem]

Cricket fanciers, what’s up with this:

A substitute fielder (and drinks waiter) for the chosen eleven

Drinks waiter? Does he bring drinks out while the team is in the field? Do they pause for this?

[Inigo_Montoya]

So…maybe they DO have trademark on the phrase. So what? It was damned petty to get it in the first place I think. By 1990 when they did it, it was a common football vocabulary word, and in fact described a damned near DANGEROUS effect in Seattle’s own King Dome. Remember that? All the fans would scream and the dome focused all the noise right on the 50 yard line at some ridiculous bone-crushing volume that actually resulted in personal foul penalties against the Seahawks. There’s your twelfth fucking man in psades! If anyone has a sole right to the term it’s Seattle. And besides, can you trademark a term once it’s in common use?

Can I trademark “the” and get filthy rich? Someone needs to go pound sand and show some class.

[explore_like_dora]

Originally Posted by BobLibDem
Drinks waiter? Does he bring drinks out while the team is in the field? Do they pause for this?

Yes. Remember, cricket is played for eight hours a day, often for five days. Most of the players are standing around in the hot summer sun for hours at a time. There are long breaks for Lunch and Tea and between these they have Drinks breaks.

Also, cricket was a game invented by upper class English folks, and traditionally has a very genteel culture, so it’s probably purely down to good fortune that periodic refreshment periods are the only odd tradition to enter the game. Considering English noblemen, if they’d been able to have their butlers come out and announce the arrival of a player each time he comes on to the field they probably would have.

[Skywatcher]

@Interrobang!?

Here’s the deal: recently, a flag with the number 12 on it has been flying on various flagpoles around town, including the one on top of the Space Needle. Why? As a thank-you to Seahawks fans, the “12th man” on the team. Nowhere on these flags does the phrase “12th man” appear, however.

As far as I can tell, however, no official Seahawks merchandise uses the phrase “12th man.” And 12 is a retired Seahawks number because of Steve Largent. And you can’t trademark “12.” (Or at least, the Aggies didn’t.)

Exactly right. As long as the Seahawks are just using “12” and it’s not in the same style as on A&M’s “12th Man” logo, it is my opinion that the Aggies don’t have a leg to stand on.

[Skywatcher]

@delphica

The Buffalo Bills added “The 12th Man” to the stadium’s Wall of Fame in 1992. It’s still there, so maybe Texas A&M hasn’t picked up on it yet.

No, the Bills are okay as long as they’re not making a profit off of it.

[Skywatcher]

@explore like dora

Along the lines of mhendo’s post, perhaps they should also be suing this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth_Man

Comedy is not football, unless you count the Houston Texans.

[Hal_Briston]

Clearly, there’s only one fair way to settle this. A Googlefight!

+“12th man” +seahawks – 228,000 results
+“12th man” +aggies – 194,000 results

Sorry Texas…back the hell off.