That’s not the same thing. Remember, we’re talking about whether the existence of Israel is necessary in order to bring about the Second Coming. I don’t know a single Christian denomination that teaches such a thing. Indeed, if any such groups exist, I’m pretty sure that they’d be in the extreme minority.
So yeah, plenty of Christians believe that God will bless those who bless Israel. That’s not one of the matters under dispute, though. The questions are (a) whether any Christian groups believe that they must keep Israel in existence in order to bring about Christ’s return, and (b) whether there’s any reason to believe that Billy Graham belongs to such a group. I’ve haven’t seen any evidence for (a) so far, and even if it were true, (b) would still seem unlikely in the extreme.
Here you go. Admittedly, it’s about the millennium, which is now five years old, but it’s acknowledgment that sects of apocalyptic Christians are pro-Israel because of their understanding of the End Times, and still anti-Semitic because of what they perceive to be Jewish rejection of Jesus’ divinity.
With respect to the Reverend Graham, it’s possible (and, indeed, likely) that he’s enough of a politician himself not to make any public statement on his feelings toward Jews one way or the other.
Apologies; I’d misunderstood what you were saying. As Robyn’s cite indicates, there are some people who believe such, but yes, they’re quite rare and don’t control any denominations AFAIK.
Based on what, zacchaeus? How do you say Graham has run afoul of the passages from the Book of Acts condemning simony?
Or is it that to you, “by definition” ANY preacher who becomes a public celebrity is guilty of simony? That the only “honest” preacher is the one you DON’T hear about?
I’ve watched this man a time or three when I happened to be up late. While he’s considerably more “fundy” than my Belief-O-Meter is calibrated for, he seems to be more interested in spreading “the Word” than in making money.
(Whether you believe in “the Word” is a whole 'nother ballgame.)
Perhaps I missed something, but I don’t see anything there stating that unless Israel is protected, the Second Coming will not happen. In other words, while this bears some superficial similarities to the teaching that you described, it’s not the same thing.
Also, based strictly on the description provided on that website, I see no legitimate basis for saying that these people are “anti-Semitic.” It does say that these people oppose secular Judaism and that religious Judaism has been superceded by Christianity, but that’s hardly the same thing.
Which only poses a problem for those who state (or even insinuate) that he does indeed detest the Jewish people.
In other words, if someone is going to suggest, “Hey, maybe Billy Graham hates Jews,” then the onus rests on that person to provide evidence. The onus does not rest on the people who ask, “How in the world did you come to that conclusion?”
Not the same thing either. We were talking about a very specific doctrinal view. Saying “Hey, this is kinda close!” doesn’t cut it.
For that matter, it’s not a very close match at all. True, they believe that before Christ’s return, certain events must take place (return of Jews from other countries, the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, etc). However, nowhere does this article state – or even remotely suggest – that these people feel unless they help these events take place, the Second Coming will never occur. Rather, a plain reading of the text suggests that they believe these events to be inevitable.
That’s not true. If they truly believed it was inevitable, they could just sit back and wait for it to happen. Many of these people are attempting to help fulfill the prophecy through their actions, and that’s what scares a lot of folks.
I mean come on, Kay Arthur stated that Rabin’s assassination was because God didn’t want the Oslo Peace Accord to go through. Some of these people are some sick fucks, no matter whose guidance they think they are operating under. The Reverend A.R Bernard even said “Israel is not just necessary to the return of Christ, it is essential to it.”
As noted, these people are not letting things happen, they are trying to help make them happen, and it’s not always pretty.
JThunder, what difference does it make? The point I was initially trying to make was that just because a person supports Israel, that doesn’t mean they can’t be anti-Semitic. I’m sorry my cite was insufficient; I thought it was adequate for the relatively minor point I was trying to make, and I don’t have enough invested in this thread to spend vast amounts of time searching for a cite that would make you happy.
We return you to your thread, already in progress.
You’re ASSUMING that they are trying to help the prophecy along. Perhaps I missed something, but I see no evidence of that in the article that you cited. It does say that the temple must be rebuilt, etc. before Christ can return, but I saw nothing to suggest that they are trying to help this prophecy occur.
You said that certain Christian groups believe in supporting Israel only because this will help Christ’s second coming to occur. That’s the claim for which I asked a cite. Now, if there’s no basis for that claim, then there’s no basis for that claim.
Admittedly, it IS true that someone can support Israel while secretly having an evil, nefarious agenda. However, the same can be said for ANY person who supports a noble cause. Unless there’s good reason to believe that Rev. Billy Graham secretly loathes the Jews with a fiery passion, then such a claim remains rooted in nothing but empty speculation.
You know, there is a world, no, more than a world of difference between the sheep, and the guy in a shepherd’s suit pimping holy water spray bottles from the pulpit.
I am not so sure I care much for the guy shearing the Lambs of God, but he can’t do much to them but take their money. It’s only money. Spiritually it doesn’t matter. The Lord loves the stupid, the weak, the deluded, and even the misinformed. If the slickee boy in the white suit fools them into faith, they loose nothing. The Lord is real, and does offer them salvation. They don’t need the preacher, but he can’t overturn the Love of God.
On the secular side, perhaps prison ministry is a good option for evangelical fraud. But it’s hard to prove, and it opens up the door for religious judgements by courts, which is a lot more to loose than a few billion dollars from the faithful that gets spent on prostitutes and Cadillac’s. I use the off switch as general solution to the televangelism problem. And remember, if you are not a Christian, when a fool and his money are parted, that dollar is not competing with yours for real goods and services. You win!
Pastor Arnold Murray sure doesn’t focus on a glitzy show.
He’s full of a lot of interesting, diverting & a few potentially dangerous doctrines (his whole Kenite/Serpent-seed deal) but the old coot sure seems sincere & avuncular. He has this Redneck Grampa thing going for him- kinda like a toned-down Cotton Hill.
I wonder if some Gene Scott buff are gonna turn to him as a replacement.
I started my active C’tian faith (age 13 in 1975) as a Christian Zionist Rapturist & I never quite felt things had to happen in Israel for the Rapture to take place. Indeed, pre-1948 Rapturist preachers thought perhaps after the Rapture, the regathering to Israel may happen, either naturally or even sponsored by the AntiChrist to try to convince them he is Messiah. Since then, a few even admit that the State of Israel could be destroyed & the Jews rescattered & it wouldn’t interfere with God’s timetable.
I am now a Christian pro-Israel, hopeful-for-a-peaceful-Palestine, historic pre-millenialist with a dash of preterist postmillenialist. Details to follow if requested.
No, I am not at all a Christian Zionist, nor would I consider myself to be particularly sympathetic to their beliefs.
Moreover, whether I am nor not has no bearing on the subject matter at hand. The claim “Christian Zionists are attempting to help a prophecy along” (whether true or false) is independent of my own particular beliefs. Ergo, asking about my own beliefs in this matter is simply irrelevant.
It has everything to do with it, as a Christian Zionist would likely keep moving the goalposts, thus making it a waste of our time. Remember, these are people who are absolutely sure that they’re right, so something as minor as evidence to the contrary would just be waved off without consideration. As stated above, one of them openly claims that an attempt for peace in the middle east goes against God’s “plan”, and therefore one of the parties to the peace was assassinated as God’s will. These are not rational people, and debating with them would be no more productive than debating issues of equality with a member of the KKK.
In logic, that is known as a form of ad hominem argumentation. You postulate that a Christian Zionist might want to misrepresent the truth, and therefore dismiss his claim.
The thing is, YOU are the one who is making claims about what they believe. ERGO, the burden of proof rests firmly on your shoulders.
None of that supports your claim. First of all, it is merely the assertion of one individual about possible dangers that might arise from Christian Zionist activism. And second, nothing in that quote implies that these Zionists are attempting to make prophecy come true.
Your other quote is similarly inadequate. To wit,
Again, where does that state that Zionists are attempting to force prophecy to come true? Quite simply, it does not. Your quote does not substantiate your claim.
And furthermore, it is merely the assertion of one individual. Assertions are not proof.