If “honest” can only mean someone who never screwed up, then I doubt that there are any “honest” televangelists by the OP’s definition. But what minister, or layman, does not have feet of clay?
The late Garner Ted Armstrong certainly had trouble staying faithful to his wife, but there is no doubt in my mind that he truly believed what he preached. I didn’t agree with him on religion or politics, but I do believe he was honest. That was the question, wasn’t it? It would be easy, but unfair to paint him with the same brush as his father, Herbert W. Armstrong, who many believed was a huckster. I won’t say whether that belief was accurate or not (I never saw the books), but I will say that Ted was a better man than his father. In my opinion he was a good man, period.
Actually, I postulated that some Christian Zionists were insane, dangerous whack jobs. They are. Also, since the person with whom I’m having this particular disagreement is yourself, unless you lied earlier about being a Christian Zionist, it’s not really an Ad Hominem in the traditional sense. Feel free to report this post if you think I’m insulting you, though. You’ll find the button on the right hand side.
Actually, I’m citing links to various persons who actually study this stuff. I personally don’t have a clue, as I have no desire to hang out with any of the aforementioned whack jobs, no matter how polite they might be with their insanity.
Considering the fact that I’ve at least presented cites that agree with my statements, I’m way ahead of you in the “support” game. Feel free to show me cites that prove that all Christian Zionists are simply sitting on their hands waiting for the inevitable end times, and not attempting to hurry it along at all.
Nor are denials, but that’s what you’ve provided.
I’m going to note right here that I’m pretty certain that there are a ton of well-balanced, well-intentioned Christians who want nothing but good things for Israel, and only because they see them as brothers in spirituality, or whatever other flowerly things one thinks about others, and there might even be some who want nothing but the best for Israel to ensure that the end times are not interfered with, yet do absolutely nothing to “help” it along. I’m not talking about them here.
Even if we grant that to be true, it still wouldn’t substantiate the claim that Christian Zionists are attempting to make prophecy come true.
Yes, it is. You would be dismissing my argument based on my personal religious affiliation and the mere possibility of my dishonesty, rather than pointing out any actual flaw in my reasoning.
None of whom substantiated the claim that these Zionists are attempting to force prophetic fulfillment.
No, you haven’t. Not one of them says that these Zionists are attempting to make prophecy come true. I have pointed this out repeatedly, which is why I am puzzled at your persistence in this regard.
You cited sources which voiced the opinion that the Zionists are a dangerous group. Even if this opinion turns out to be valid, it is still vastly different from the issue that is actually under debate.
What I have said is that I see no evidence that the Zionists are forcing prophecy to occur. This is not the same as mere “denial.”
Moreover, since you are the one who is offering a claim with regard to their beliefs, the burden of proof rests on your shoulders. This burden is not being borne very well, I might add.
I don’t recall equating the two, but I’d be happy to if you’d like.
No, I wouldn’t. I was quite clear in stating that I wouldn’t even be having the argument, so there wouldn’t be any dismissing going on. So, did you lie, or is this some weird sidetrack?
If you say so.
They say that they Zionists are attempting to “help” it along. In other words, influencing the outcome, not sitting idly by waiting for it to happen.
Tell you what, since it seems to me that you keep changing what it is you want us to demonstrate, why not repeat it here.
I am in full agreement with you here. I also see no evidence that they are forcing prophecy to occur. Of course, the reason I see no such evidence is that I think that prophecies are complete hooey. They are attempting to influence the process, even if I personally feel that their hoped for outcome is irrational.
Actually, you asked for a single cite. I provided it. More than once.
I meant to post this sooner, but it’s been a busy weekend. The Trinity Foundation does a pretty good job of keeping tabs on televangelists – it’s part of their mission – and they might have some information.
Sadly, this is my parents’ belief. Needless to say, we try not to discuss religion anymore, but growing up in that sort of religious environment (I’m 30 now) continues to impact me and my gut-level reactions. I’m very much relieved to be a Methodist now.
I hope y’all realize that one can believe those Jewish people who reject Jesus as Savior are very seriously in error while not being anti-Semitic.
And since the subject may well come up, let me reassert my view that rejection of Jesus in this life =/= necessarily damnation but does put one’s afterlife destiny on hold. Paul foresaw a day in which all Israel would accept Jesus (Romans 9-11), tying that event to the Resurrection of the Dead.
Here’s how the reasoning seems to go, based on reading several of the results of that search.
The Messiah will return and build the third temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Non-purified Jews are not allowed on the Temple Mount, but, there is currently no way to be properly purified. But, the sacrifice of a pure red heifers can be used to purify people. So, no pure red heifer, no purification, no Third Temple, no second coming of the Messiah.
There are at least some christians that, in order to facilitate the second coming, are working on breeding a pure red heifer.
So… Christian Zionists (in this case, in the US) working to breed an animal needed to bring about the second coming. Sounds like that qualifies as
Anyway, yes- there are C’tian Fundy Zionist groups trying to speed along the Rapture/Second Coming by action on reviving the Temple-Sacrificial system, which includes the Red Heifer deal. There are not any denominations which take this approach, which is what JThunder specifically spoke of. Nor are these Red Heifer groups dominant even within Fundist C’nity. I will admit I heard one radio preacher actually say “Jesus can’t return until the ashes of the RH are found” (I think it was on the always-entertaining but now hard-to-find-on-the-radio Southwest Radio Church)- I daresay that I & many who are much Fundier than I found that statement nigh blasphemous.
There IS one valid way for Christians to hasten the Return of Jesus-
Matthew 24:
14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Another vote for the late Dr. Gene Scott. He was as money-hungry as the more glitzy, faith healin’ tongue speakin’ televangelists, but he was brutally up front about where the money went. GET ON THE TELEPHONE!
Welcome to the SDMB, Sam_theedge. Just so you know, you’ve “resurrected” a discussion thread that was started (and last posted on) in 2005, and the original poster, Lord Ashtar, hasn’t been active here in over a year.
Since it’s been bumped, I think it’s interesting that Joel Osteen was mentioned as seeming honest. He doesn’t really have a sterling reputation, and is a frequent target of The Babylon Bee, a parody news site that’s run by Christians but mainly pokes fun at dumb things that various churches do.
He’s roasted by a lot of conservative Christians because of his message is perceived as feel-good & anemic. He’s roasted by a lot of liberals because he’s still doctrinally conservative & has money, although his income is now through book & recording sales, not from church donations.
And in the meantime, Billy Graham, Robert Schuller, and Arnold Murray have all died.
Murray’s church was investigated by the SPLC for possible racism.
Schuller’s son took over his ministry, and sold the Crystal Cathedral. He preaches out of a more modest facility nowadays.
Let’s not talk about Billy Graham’s son. However, a city in my region was hit by a tornado (no deaths and a few minor injuries, but lots of property damage) and Samaritan’s Purse showed up. They wanted names and addresses of people whose homes were seriously damaged but couldn’t afford repairs, and did them at no cost to the owners. A local TV station showed the workers praying outside a house, and even though I’m a Christian, I sure hope they didn’t demand that the homeowners join in.
I used to watch a very folksy preacher named Gerald Mann who televised his services, and also had a live Q&A that was always interesting. This was in the late 1980s, and two subjects that were verboten on this show were homosexuality and abortion. As for the latter, all he would say about it was that he’d been there, as much as a man could be. When his wife was pregnant with their first child, in the late 1950s, she had a physician-diagnosed case of rubella, and where they were living, if this happened, a woman could have a legal abortion. They declined, and even though their daughter was born deaf, it was a decision neither had ever regretted.
Here’s Dr. Mann praying at a not exactly well attended Farm Aid in 1992.
