Should atheists have to lie for the sake of societal harmony?
How is that a lie? My current religion is none at all, and I’m happy with it.
Rather like the bald man saying, “I’m happy with my hair color”.
I’d emigrate. You Americans seem just like the rest of us, and then you post about things like this. With 9% attendance and slipping, according to an article in the paper this weekend, churchgoers are by far the minority. This literally never happens here.
But if it did?
I’d say “Which service are you attending?” and hope my attempt to slip out of the conversation without discussing my religious beliefs worked - not out of shame, but because it’s just not up for negotiation or discussion. Put on the spot and unable to weasel out, I’d just say “No, I’m not.” Why? “I’m an atheist”. Asked to discuss it further I’d say “I’m not going to have that conversation with you. I’m not interested in talking about my beliefs, and I’m not interested in yours.” If pressed further, I’d be making a complaint to HR.
But again, this is a conversation so bizarre and unlikely that I can’t actually really imagine myself having it. The closest I can recall is last Christmas when my partner’s aunt was telling me all about how religious her mother was and what a strong faith she had. She asked what religion I was and I said “None, I’m an atheist”. She said “Oh” and then immediately started talking about how none of her family actually attend church or anything, and how she herself hadn’t been in years. It came across as though she had the mistaken idea that I was a person of faith and was trying to impress me by talking about the strength of her mother’s faith, but once she knew I was an atheist she quickly backtracked and tried to downplay everything she’d just said by emphasising how irreligious she and her children are.
Atheism isn’t a religion, and responses like yours are(at best)deception by ommission. It allows people like the OP to claim that he doesn’t know any non-arrogant atheists because the others are hiding.
Maybe it’s because I’m a mathematician – I have no problem with saying the null set is a valid set. 
Might not work. A few Baptists came to my door and I told them I was Jewish (which is true, atheist also) and they started in on how I had to be saved.
Then I let them have it with my patented almost 2,000 years of oppression of my people by your people. I bet they thought I was ready to slug them. Never been back.
Nice, I should try that. I’m (probably) not Jewish, but I can very easily pass as Jewish. I just better not answer the door eating a ham sandwich.
Just an FYI: How is this OP not trolling? (IMHO thread about Atheists) - About This Message Board - Straight Dope Message Board
Thread title in ATMB: **How is this OP not trolling? **
Carry on.
Oh absolutely. The issue is telling people that you know better than they do the contents of their own minds. And/or telling them you know that they’re being dishonest. Even if I think that’s true of some individuals, a billboard broadcasting the message is just being dickish, not to mention counterproductive. If I saw a Democratic billboard that said something like, “You say you want to reward effort and stimulate the economy, but you know you just want the rich to get richer,” that would be douchey and condescending, even though I think it really is true of *some *people. And it is likely to have the opposite effect of the intended one on those people, in addition to pissing off all the others.
You asked how *we *would respond. As I do consider myself an atheist Jew, that is how I would respond.
But isn’t the claim of billboard sponsors absolutely correct? That people indeed are being dishonest when they mouth culturally acceptable religious platitudes just because they think they should. If these are targeted at atheists who are scared to be open about it then I don’t see the controversy.
If they are designed to convert the religious then I’d agree, dickish and unproductive. If they are designed to let the undercover atheist know they are not alone and it is OK to be open about it then they are absolutely spot-on. In those circumstances how can such billboards be criticised for claiming to know the persons mind better than they do themselves? If they are atheist and they are undercover then of course they know these are myths.
I don’t know enough about USA politics to know if your analogy holds water so I can’t really comment on it other than to say that it sounds fairly mild to me. Definitely something that would be part of good natured political banter. Would that really be so offensive to you? I have such conversations with family and friends all the time with no lasting harm.
But then I’m from the UK and it may be that my experience of political and religious debate are substantially different from yours.
I am not an atheist, but I don’t celebrate Easter (or Christmas either) and explaining why a Christian doesn’t celebrate it generally isn’t worth the time and frustration, at least not as a matter of small talk. If someone is genuinely interested, I’m happy to talk to them about it. Anyway, I’ll generally either sort of let those sorts of comments slide unremarked, or if unavoidable, just say I don’t celebrate it. When it’s small talk, generally they don’t want an argument, just like you don’t see people respond to “How are you doing?” with “Shitty, my wife left me today.” So my advice is basically just give honest answers to whatever level you’re comfortable, and refuse when you’re not, which may even be right at the first question.
To the OP, I’ll have to go with the idea that you probably just don’t know. You’re unlikely to know that about someone unless they make it a part of their persona, and anyone who makes religion or atheism a part of their persona is probably going to approach the topic pretty arrogantly anyway. There’s pretty plenty who just don’t care to talk about it or even deliberately avoid talking about it.
Personally, I know several atheists. Some are rather obnoxious about it and actively bash religion. Some are passionate, but considerate about it, and genuinely interested in an honest discussion about it. Some basically just don’t care too much one way or the other. It’s not all that different from the religious aspect where you have some that are douches, some who are passionate but accepting, and some who just nominally believe but don’t really have much emotion or interest invested in it. The only real difference I see is that, at least in the US, it’s generally assumed that an unknown person is a protestant or possibly catholic unless there’s a reason to believe something else. But there’s also the chance that they’re actually Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or something else.
Really, it’s not all that different from any other non-obvious minority, like political opinions. One could easily assume that if you’re in an area that’s predominantly one party or the other that people not participating are probably of that same mind, but they could easily be of the other major party or even third party. It’s easier to paint minorities with a broad brush, just because we have less samples to compare to, but it’s still unfair.
Not in a nation where there’s millions of atheists who need such messages to tell them that they aren’t utterly alone, and that it’s OK to feel something other than self hatred for being an atheist. And it’s ridiculous to complain about that in a nation awash with pro-religious messages - is it “dickish” to put up all those Christian symbols everywhere? We’ve got “In God We Trust” on our money, but it’s “dickish” for atheists to speak up?
And the simple word “atheists” or “atheism” is enough to make a billboard offensive. Like this banned message for example; terribly offensive, isn’t it?
Believers want atheists to convert, to remain utterly silent about their non-belief, lie about believing, or die. There is nothing else that atheists can do that won’t offend the believers, the simple existence of atheists is offensive to them. We are monsters just for existing.
What really matters is the reason for bashing a particular religion. The act itself isn’t necessarily obnoxious.
Decrying the catholic church for it’s bigoted policies, stance on condom use and child-abuse cover-ups should be positively encouraged. These aren’t head-of-a-pin philosophical hand waving, they are objective harms.
Of course there will be those who think my even mentioning that counts as “militant atheism” or similar made-up pejoratives when really it is specific criticism of the policies of a political party. The fact they claim authority from a supernatural being has no bearing on the wrong that they do.
In my experience, the least arrogant bunch are the agnostics. Every other belief/nonbelief system seems to have the same incidence of individual arrogance - but in the big religions, the individual instances are underpinned by breathtaking levels of institutional arrogance, which they aren’t for atheists or for less institutionally focused religions like paganism.
Most atheists I know just seem to want to be left alone, religiously speaking, but the small minority can be as militant, argumentative, one-note, intolerant, cringe-inducing and generally tedious as the small minority of fundamentalists in any religion. I haven’t found that with agnostics - I’ve never known an agnostic who made me want to say ‘Oh please just SHUT UP about your religious beliefs/loathing of religious beliefs because NOBODY ASKED and NOBODY CARES.’ They sometimes get ranty about specific issues or specific beliefs, but not about religion (or the lack of it) in general, so their rants tend to be more intelligent and better thought out than the generalised ones. I’ve also never known an agnostic to have that awful, smug, adolescent-flavoured superiority (moral or intellectual) that I’ve seen in a minority of every religion and of atheists.
I think certainty just doesn’t bring out the best in human beings.
I’ve never understood why Atheist expend any effort at all to oppose something they believe does not exists.
I suddenly can see how an atheist can appear arrogant just by opening their mouth.
When you confess to others that you don’t believe in God, what are you communicating? You’re telling believers that you don’t believe there’s an omnipresent force watching over us, constantly judging and punishing. You’re saying that you are completely unafraid of afterlife consequences. To deny the existence of God is–in many believer’s eyes–to blaspheme, which is absolutely unthinkable. So anyone with this kind of confidence MUST be arrogant, you see. It’s impossible to say out loud “I don’t believe…” without looking like you’re intentionally inviting God’s wrath.
You could be the mousiest person in the world. It doesn’t matter.
It does take a load of confidence to be brave enough to break from away conventional wisdom and think for oneself. Everyone looks arrogant in the eyes of a person who lacks confidence.
That’s almost exactly what I say any time anyone other than a close friend - theist or atheist - asks me about my religious beliefs. ‘Sorry, but I’m very private about that stuff.’ Smile. Repeat if necessary, but it never has been. End of conversation.
Not exactly arrogance, but over the last few years, I’ve begun to practice a polite assertiveness in the face of statements like, “So where do you go to church?”
Previously, I was more likely to avoid such questions. I suspect this often led to people thinking that I’m just a believer who’s fallen away from the church.
I think those kinds of misunderstandings lead to impressions like the one in the OP. If atheists don’t politely assert their atheism, the rude ones will be seen as the rule.
I should also clarify something: if a “Hellfire-and-brimstone” Christian asks me whether I believe in God, I will likely so no, I’m an atheist. If a person of a more general, tolerant Christianity asks same the question, I may identify myself as agnostic. The reason: I’m not really sure of the non-existence of the kind of God the second person believes in, but I’m very certain about the first guy’s God.