Seriously. Am I living in a world unknown to me where such a significant portion of the population “self-identifies” as something other than what other people would identify them as for it to actually need to be a phrase as often as I see it?
Maybe I’m alone in self-identifying as a skinny white woman who happens to be, well, a skinny white woman. Is it so rampant that you just can’t ask the question “Are you a male?” and NOT get a significant enough response from that?
I think I’m going to start self-identifying as a indo-european/anglo-asian height challenged/differently abled/vegan wombat with tiny feet. That will trip up the pollsters for sure.
I live in a town that evidently has a pretty big “change your gender” medical presence and yet it doesn’t seem that big of an issue to me.
Tell me dopers, am I living in some odd bubble world?
There are a variety of groups which identify as Hebrews/Jews/Israelites who have either no grounds or very circumstantial grounds for that claim- Anglo-Israelites (and their more racist variant Christian Identity), Black Hebrews, I’ve heard of but haven’t verified such groups also in India and Japan, and LDS Native Americans.
Holy shit yes! This has been giving me the shits for several years. “I identify as” instead of “I am” was bad enough, but obviously that wasn’t irritating enough, so it’s now “self-identify”.
Utter bollocks. My only hope is that one day the left wing academia-meaningless-wank-speech terminology like “self-identify” will somehow collide with the right wing business jargonese like “customer-focused initiatives” and the whole lot of those people will disappear into a black hole, and the rest of us will be able to live in peace using language like, “I am a white guy”, “My arse is itchy”, or “Pick me up a six pack when you’re in town.”
I’ve only ever seen that terminology on the Dope, honestly. I’ve never met anyone in real life who “self-identified” as anything (gender, race, whatever) other than what they plainly appeared to be.
Well, here’s one example: I’m half Asian and half white. Born in Vietnam but grew up in the USA. On tests, job applications, etc. where I can mark only one of the little race bubbles, whatever I choose is pretty clearly a case of me “self-identifying.”
I personally know two individuals born with male genitalia who happen to be women. The world has a right, I suppose, to smirk and roll its eyes. They have the right to dress and act and speak as they feel comfortable, and they have as much right to respect as I have the right to identify as a fat chick. How have you determined that it’s wrong for these people to have an F on their driver’s license or to check the F box on a form?
I know another individual who was born a hermaphrodite. This individual was identified as male throughout his life. His doctors lied to him, lied to his parents, and performed surgery on his genitalia under false pretense because that’s just how they did that sort of thing back in the day. What box do you suppose he should check?
The question of what determines gender is not as simple as you might think. If it was, gender reassignment surgery would not be a legal and accepted medical practice.
Let’s go for race. What makes you black? The one-drop rule applied once. I probably have a slave ancestor back in my history. Does that make me black? News to me. What about the man who grew up believing he was African-American until a genetic test revealed he had not a drop of African blood in him?
This term comes up a lot in discussions of sexuality. Are you straight or gay? Well, there are plenty of men who have sex with other men who tell other people that they’re straight. Does that make them straight? You could say that a man who regularly has sex with other men isn’t straight, and I’d probably agree with you. Except, here’s this guy who says he’s straight. Or, what makes someone gay? That they have sex with people of the same sex? What about gay virgins? Does having sex with both men and women make you bisexual? Just about every gay man I know has had sex with women, does that make them bisexual?
It’s probably got a lot to do with where you live and how observant you are (and how much you care) and who you hang out with.
I personally know:
Two never-going-to-have-surgery people born with vulvas who live the lives of men.
One never-going-to-have-surgery person born with a penis who is lives the role of a woman.
One born-with-a-vulva person who feels like a man but lives the role of a woman because she’s too afraid (her words, not mine) not to.
One born-with-a-vulva person who did have surgery and lives the role of a man.
Away from gender issues, I have friends of fairly recent African ancestry who were raised and identify white, one white friend raised in Korea who identifies Korean, and a multitude of bi- and multi-racial folks who can and do “pass” in multiple cultures.
I self identify as a fat hippie chick, even though most people say I’m “big, but not fat” (I am definitely morbidly obese by medical definitions, but I guess I carry it well, and I still have a waistline) and most people seeing me in everyday life wouldn’t peg me as a hippie at all. (In fact, when I’m WITH hippies, I self-identify as a Muggle, because they’re soooo much more out there than I am. I guess like those biracial folks, I float between worlds and can identify with either or neither.)
So yeah, I find it a useful concept, if an ugly term. I’m perfectly willing to use whatever pronoun or adjective you like, but I’d like a more graceful way to explain it than with extensive hyphens. For the transgendered especially, it can get sticky, especially if surgery hasn’t and isn’t going to happen.
“She is a her, and her name is Audrey.” pointed look
(But I do agree with you. There isn’t really an easy way without expending a lot of air to say “This is Audrey who was born Thomas but has not had surgery but takes female hormones and has better dress sense than I EVER WILL.”)
Does this come up that often in people’s daily lives? It is a very useful way for me to talk about data, although it hardly ever comes up in conversation. When you’re working with a huge data set, sometimes there is interesting and valuable information that comes from the “self-identify” fields.
Sometimes it’s valuable to a relatively small group of people, but it’s really valuable to them and doesn’t hurt me at all if I am one of the vast majority of other people. Very, very few people in my office building use a wheelchair, but I think it’s a great idea to have wheelchair ramps. I could break my leg next week! This is not the best example ever, because the ramp is required by law, but even if the ADA went away tomorrow, I would still be a huge advocate for ramps. Having a ramp or not doesn’t make a huge difference to me personally either way, but I want to live in the kind of society where the relatively small number of people who do use wheelchairs get a freakin’ ramp.
So in the example about gender and medical options, it’s all the same to me whether you ask if I am a woman or self-identify as a woman or even if you look at me and assume I’m a woman. It’s a complete non-issue. But for a person with a less typical gender history, it is an asset to be able to self-identify. In terms of medical care, a person who has female organs and identifies as male is going to have a better experience with health care if the staff knows him as Mr. Smith and also knows to schedule routine Pap tests. Cost to me: nothing.
Yes. Many traits can’t be determined by looking at a person. In many cases, the mere concept of having Person A determine a trait by looking at or questioning Person B is demeaning. Examples:
“Describe every sexual experience you’ve had, and I’ll decide whether you’re gay or straight.”
“Describe in detail your beliefs about the Holy Trinity, and I’ll tell you whether you’re Christian or not.”
“Let me look at you and decide if you’re black.”
“Tell me your views on abortion and the death penalty and I’ll tell you whether you’re a liberal.”
In all such cases the more reliable and socially appropriate mechanism is to allow the person to self-identify. This is so obvious that I feel silly even explaining it. But you questioned it, so I have no choice.
Oh sure, you get “Audrey”. I get to explain “Vick”, “Wolf”, “River”, “Terry” and “Aura”! Gah! If you’re going to be gender-complicated, at least pick a name that isn’t!
(I’ve met Vick a dozen times and just couldn’t decide. Vick is the single most androgynous person on the planet. Vick has a low alto or high tenor voice. Vick has an adam’s apple about the size of Ann Coulter’s. Vick wears jeans and western wear. I find Vick fascinating and wonderful and a delight - I just couldn’t figure out if I should hit on Vick or not! Finally last week Vick referred to himself as our (the collective we) “brother”, and I felt much relief. Still not sure if I should hit on him, but at least I have a pronoun.)
I dunno. Do you self identify as a person who lives in an odd bubble world?
I don’t think it’s that stupid…even if getting to be overused. Comes to gender, comes to religion, comes to race. Sometimes you have to self identify. Life is a movable feast.
I knew you’d show up in here WhyNot Good to see you.
Freddy:
I’m going to take a huge ol’ leap and assume that anyone that would make those statements probably wouldn’t give a flying pig what you chose to self-identify. It’s been my experience with those types of folks anyway.
I’ve never been questioned on which check box I chose. I’m ok leaving a question blank or N/A or Other. Then again, I don’t walk around asking folks are you REALLY a man? Are you REALLY black? Are you really a Pastafarian??
How have you determined that it’s wrong for these people to have an F on their driver’s license or to check the F box on a form?
Good to see you.