Are there instances where societal ignorance is preferable?

Chekmate did something similar here. But I’m trying to look at it from the societal perspective, not an individual one like he did.

I’m going to give some examples, some real life, some completely fabricated. I’d prefer this not be a debate on the specific examples but what I’m trying to show they represent.

Two real life examples:

  1. The book The Bell Curve
  2. A study put out a few years ago showing that peers influence a child’s behavior and life much more so than parents ever would.

Both of these caused uproars when published. Now, ultimately, both were shown to be incorrect in their ultimate conclusions. Blacks aren’t less intelligent. Parents do have a substantial effect on how their own kids behave.
But that doesn’t change the fact that many people hated these studies for no other reason than they simply did not want those results to be true. Some people said “even if it is true, why publish the study? What good can possibly come of it?”

They wished for society to remain ignorant. Now my question to all of you is: is this a bad thing?
Suppose those studies were definative. Suppose you took a look at them and the results were ironclad. Yup, irrefutable proof. That’s how the world is.

Suppose there was a study that showed conclusively that Hispanics were lazier than the rest of society?
That Jews committed a far greater percentage of white collared crimes than any other race or religion?
That Communism really is the best form of government there is.

Again, I don’t care about the examples. Throw those out and make up your own. I’m asking what would happen if there was absolute proof on something society is not willing to accept. Something that would hurt society if it were true…which it obviously is thanks to this report.
Should that report be published, or is it better to remain ignorant?

Remember the “gay gene” theory a while back?

The theory was that amniocentesis could determine if a fetus would be gay (drove the anti-abortion, anti-homosexual factions crazy :smiley: )

I’d say suppress the info.

What if (ethnic group) were genetically doomed to be under-acheivers?

Suppress it - there just might be a couple who surprise you, who would not have had the chance if they were channeled into “we know you can’t do as well as the others” lives.

Plus, the human genome has proved a bit trickier than originally hoped. (IANAMR, IMO, YMMV)

If ignorance is bliss, call me a masochist. The day I like government lying to me will be the day I quit complaining about it. I believe ignorance of the masses to be one of the biggest problems of society, and how are we to combat that without offering people the entire truth as we know it? IMHO, learning will never hurt us in the long run, so give it to me straight!

What if we had an example where we both KNEW something was true and we KNEW that the more people who knew it, the more true it would be?

For example, during WWII, whenever the radio released information that there would be a shortage in, say, shoelaces. People would go out immediately and try to buy as many shoelaces as possible to try and avoid the shortage. As a result of this, instead of there being a mild shortage, there was now an extreme shortage where you couldn’t buy shoelaces ANYWHERE. Any time a small amount of shoelaces came onto the market, they were snapped up rapidly by people who already had many shoelaces since you never knew how long the shortage would last so it was better being safe than sorry.

As a result of this, shortages lasted FAR longer than they should have even though it was quite possible that every single person had 50 shoelaces stored in their basement.

Sorry. Blacks as a group are less intelligent than Whites.

Good parents have a substantial positive impact on their children. Bad parents have a substantially bad impact, or little impact on their children.

OWD, please put your cites out there or we’ll see you in the Pit

After 40 years of social engineering, STILL black children from wealthy homes perform below White children from low income homes. Liberals are still making excuses, trying to fuzz and fog, but the facts are there.

Here is a recent one. Keep in mind that Blacks do comparatively well until the fourth grade, and then the gap just keeps widening. Note the reference to fourth graders. More liberal fuzz and fog. Nothing has changed.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/page1/ledger/158ce13.html

Study finds race matters in test scores
01/12/02

BY JOHN MOONEY
STAR-LEDGER STAFF

White students do a lot better on standardized tests than their black and Hispanic peers, even when the students come from similar schools and income levels, new state data show.
An analysis of New Jersey’s first-ever school-by-school test data broken down by race found the white students’ overall passing rates last year were twice that of black and Hispanic students on some tests. The results for Asian students were often the highest of all groups.
On the eighth-grade math exam, for instance, 74 percent of the whites passed, compared with 29 percent of the blacks and 39 percent of the Hispanic students. Among the Asians tested, 83 percent passed.
And even when income differences were taken out of the calculation, the so-called “achievement gap” persisted.
For example, among one set of comparable middle-class districts, 89 percent of white students were found proficient in the state’s fourth-grade language arts test last year. The passing rate was 70 percent for black students, and 77 percent for Hispanic children. Asian students passed at a better than 91 percent rate.
On some parts of the state’s three standardized tests, white students in the state’s neediest districts did nearly as well as African-American children in far wealthier communities, according to the data released yesterday.
“This is a huge problem and will never be solved by a single solution,” said William Librera, New Jersey’s incoming education commissioner. “We need to recognize that progress can be achieved, but not by ways that we have done before.”
The state’s release of the data is expected to ignite a discussion in New Jersey that has been ongoing nationally for several years, one that has spurred countless studies to determine what lies at the heart of the differences and what can be done.
Educators vary in their diagnoses, with the most prominent research saying a combination of factors are at play, ranging from the expectations of students, families, teachers and society as a whole to biases within the tests themselves.
But for all the discussion, hard answers have been elusive, with communities at the forefront of the national efforts unable to point to dramatic gains.
“New Jersey has taken the first, critical step by identifying the extent of the problem,” said Education Commissioner Vito Gagliardi Sr., releasing the data in his last week in office.
“It’s now up to the department and local school districts,” he said, “to intensify our efforts to find solutions and implement strategies that are targeted at closing the gap in academic achievement and assuring educational equity and excellence for all our students.”
Among the steps in place are court-ordered reforms inside New Jersey’s neediest districts – many of them serving predominantly minority students – and several grant and pilot programs aimed at boosting minority achievement in all schools.
Librera said incoming Gov. James E. McGreevey’s $45-million pledge for early literacy programs is also aimed at closing the achievement gap, as many of the students lagging in the tests are the same ones who struggle with reading early in their school careers.
State officials also found some encouraging news yesterday in the data. For example, the test score differences were smaller in the fourth-grade test than in the eighth-grade exam, indicating reforms in the younger grades may be working and could ultimately show gains in the older ones.
The achievement gap has been a focus of attention in Montclair for nearly a decade, with the township now among a consortium of racially diverse districts throughout the country working to devise strategies for closing the gap.
The efforts have borne some fruit, especially in the area of language arts. For instance, officials were encouraged when 85 percent of the district’s black students in fourth grade last year passed the reading and writing section of the elementary school test.
That was still far less than the 97 percent passing rate for white students, according to state data, but well above the average for black students in comparable districts.
Montclair officials have also stressed gains that may not show up in tests scores, such as a rising number of black students taking higher-level courses and going on to college.
Funded through a $200,000 state grant last year, Montclair’s effort has centered on providing additional tutoring to students who may be lagging in the elementary schools, as well as programs outside the schools.
“We even had a group of parents going out to talk to other parents about their children taking the SATs,” said Jeanne Pryor, the district’s assistant superintendent. “Part of it is just impressing youngsters to the importance of taking the test and not being afraid of the test.”
John Mooney covers education. He can be reached at jmooney@starledger.com or 973-392-1548.

Here is a newer one. There do fairly well until the fourth grade and then the gap just keeps widening. Liberals try anything to say it ain’t so. Wealthy black students still perform below poor White students.

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/page1/ledger/158ce13.html

Study finds race matters in test scores
01/12/02

BY JOHN MOONEY
STAR-LEDGER STAFF

White students do a lot better on standardized tests than their black and Hispanic peers, even when the students come from similar schools and income levels, new state data show.
An analysis of New Jersey’s first-ever school-by-school test data broken down by race found the white students’ overall passing rates last year were twice that of black and Hispanic students on some tests. The results for Asian students were often the highest of all groups.
On the eighth-grade math exam, for instance, 74 percent of the whites passed, compared with 29 percent of the blacks and 39 percent of the Hispanic students. Among the Asians tested, 83 percent passed.
And even when income differences were taken out of the calculation, the so-called “achievement gap” persisted.
For example, among one set of comparable middle-class districts, 89 percent of white students were found proficient in the state’s fourth-grade language arts test last year. The passing rate was 70 percent for black students, and 77 percent for Hispanic children. Asian students passed at a better than 91 percent rate.
On some parts of the state’s three standardized tests, white students in the state’s neediest districts did nearly as well as African-American children in far wealthier communities, according to the data released yesterday.
“This is a huge problem and will never be solved by a single solution,” said William Librera, New Jersey’s incoming education commissioner. “We need to recognize that progress can be achieved, but not by ways that we have done before.”
The state’s release of the data is expected to ignite a discussion in New Jersey that has been ongoing nationally for several years, one that has spurred countless studies to determine what lies at the heart of the differences and what can be done.
Educators vary in their diagnoses, with the most prominent research saying a combination of factors are at play, ranging from the expectations of students, families, teachers and society as a whole to biases within the tests themselves.
But for all the discussion, hard answers have been elusive, with communities at the forefront of the national efforts unable to point to dramatic gains.
“New Jersey has taken the first, critical step by identifying the extent of the problem,” said Education Commissioner Vito Gagliardi Sr., releasing the data in his last week in office.
“It’s now up to the department and local school districts,” he said, “to intensify our efforts to find solutions and implement strategies that are targeted at closing the gap in academic achievement and assuring educational equity and excellence for all our students.”
Among the steps in place are court-ordered reforms inside New Jersey’s neediest districts – many of them serving predominantly minority students – and several grant and pilot programs aimed at boosting minority achievement in all schools.
Librera said incoming Gov. James E. McGreevey’s $45-million pledge for early literacy programs is also aimed at closing the achievement gap, as many of the students lagging in the tests are the same ones who struggle with reading early in their school careers.
State officials also found some encouraging news yesterday in the data. For example, the test score differences were smaller in the fourth-grade test than in the eighth-grade exam, indicating reforms in the younger grades may be working and could ultimately show gains in the older ones.
The achievement gap has been a focus of attention in Montclair for nearly a decade, with the township now among a consortium of racially diverse districts throughout the country working to devise strategies for closing the gap.
The efforts have borne some fruit, especially in the area of language arts. For instance, officials were encouraged when 85 percent of the district’s black students in fourth grade last year passed the reading and writing section of the elementary school test.
That was still far less than the 97 percent passing rate for white students, according to state data, but well above the average for black students in comparable districts.
Montclair officials have also stressed gains that may not show up in tests scores, such as a rising number of black students taking higher-level courses and going on to college.
Funded through a $200,000 state grant last year, Montclair’s effort has centered on providing additional tutoring to students who may be lagging in the elementary schools, as well as programs outside the schools.
“We even had a group of parents going out to talk to other parents about their children taking the SATs,” said Jeanne Pryor, the district’s assistant superintendent. “Part of it is just impressing youngsters to the importance of taking the test and not being afraid of the test.”
John Mooney covers education. He can be reached at jmooney@starledger.com or 973-392-1548.

Posting it twice does not make it true. It is also not what your own source said. You really need to learn how to read with comprehension.

Look on the bright side, tomndebb. At least he managed to post in English, in black and white.

Assuming that the answer is “yes”, let no one say that OWD isn’t doing his bit to better society.

BTW, I suspect we have a new troll/sock puppet combo on board. Anyone care to bet?

Nope, didn’t bother us anti-abortion folks in the least. If abortion is immoral, it’s immoral, and the motivations of the woman seeking the abortion are irrelevant. I’ve never heard a single anti-abortion spokesperson say, “Oh… well, we’ll make an exception for women who’s fetus might turn out to be gay.”

Noooo… the people in trouble, IF the “gay gene” theory is ever borne out, are the folks on the Left who’ve made abortion out to be sacrosanct, but who’d be faced with the prospect of pregnant women aborting gay babies.

And on what possible grounds could such people argue that women SHOULDN’T do just that? Once you’ve made the argument that a woman’s right to choose is absolute, you’d be a hypocrite could object to a redneck woman aborting a baby based on its possibly gay genes!

Or is “choice” only sacred when it’s a choice you approve of?

Anyone wanna bet, oh, a quarter, that OWD is another alias for No 1965 Chain Immigration?

Only 13 responses and it’s quite an interesting thread already. I’m even looking at it as an (unintentional) social experiment.
The first two responses (and ~40 views) were the only ones in the first 24 hours and they had completely opposite opinions!

Then OWD came in here claiming that blacks ARE less intelligent than whites. Now, phouka, I thought your response was interesting: OWD, please put your cites out there or we’ll see you in the Pit.
Obviously you want to see the cites. This board is designed to fight ignorance, is it not? But “we’ll see you in the Pit.”? Do you see what just happened? You were ready to pit him because he was telling you something you didn’t want to believe. This is exactly what I’m talking about here!
People are getting angry at these studies not for the results but because someone would dare to ask the question in the first place. God forbid it turn out to be true! Then what would happen?

Now it turns out later that OWD misread the sites (while committing copyright infringement no less), but that doesn’t change the initial reaction. phouka I’m not blaming you, I just thought it was funny that this complete hijack of my thread, in actuallity, parallels it quite nicely.

Extremely interesting side-issue here, though: if there were shown to be a gay gene (that is, those with the gene would grow to consistently self-identify as exclusively gay), and it could be definitively detected in amnio tests, what would the reaction of the typical pro-choice person to an women who aborted her baby to avoid having a gay child?

What would the reaction of the typical pro-life person?

  • Rick

Ender, you’re right. Looking at the context, my reaction was just what you were talking about. Glad I could provide an illustrated example to what you were speaking of. :wink:

The example I was planning to provide was from a John Stossel special on equality of the sexes and whether or not there were biological gender differences (aside from original equipment, that is). The conclusion he drew and that I agreed with based on the evidence he put forth is that there are specific differences that are biology and not culture-based. At one point in the show, he interviewed Gloria Steinem, and her reaction was pretty much that if the studies were showing that, then they should be stopped and the results should be suppressed because obviously they couldn’t be right. So, I guess she would be in favor of that sort of thing.

I do think, though, that refusing to allow someone to voice their opinion is different from saying that they’re not just wrong, they’re idiots. Case in point: OWD.

Bricker, as a person who considers herself personally pro-life and politically pro-choice (that is, I would only consider abortion for myself under very dire conditions, but I will not interfere with another woman’s right to abortion), my own reaction would be disgust and dismay, but no effort to stop her. If she came to me for help, I would try to talk her out of it and maybe even offer to adopt the child. I doubt I would lend her money for an abortion.

If you’re looking to preserve the sacred cow status of some groups, then yes, societal ignorance is preferable.

So you are saying Blacks are bad parents?

How does one define good and bad parents?

Actually, this is a bit of an oversimplication, but one way is to define it in operational terms.

How about this for an operation definition of good parents: being married before having your children?