Just keep in mind that this argument has been used to justify excluding all kinds of special ed kids from schools who even you agree should be educated. And it is being used to get rid of sports, music, drama, art, etc. in schools too.
At my kids school we have had to pay to have your kids involved in sports, music, drama, etc. for two decades. But we have more specialists and aides in the district than teachers.
Does your payment cover all costs of the sports, music and drama programs?
And that’s just extracurricular. Would you support getting rid of physical education, music and art instruction etc. during the school day to save money?
I should be clearer. Phy Ed is mandated by the state, so that still exists. But art, music and librarians have disappeared over the past twenty years in my district. There are no art classes. Extracurriculars are paid for via fees.
Should the state drop the mandate and schools end Phys. Ed? It’s not really necessary. It’s wasting precious money that could be used to teach reading and math.
Ah. I see. So you are one of those who should have already learned this lesson.
This situation is truly pathetic. I can’t believe your district is in such dire straits. What terrible schools you must have. Even the worst school systems these days still have libraries and art and music, in some form or another.
If you don’t mind sharing, which district is this?
What lesson… Fund your schools. Yes, I think you should fund your schools. However, when you don’t, it isn’t fair to disproportionally allocate resources with such disparity.
And the schools perform above state average in Math and Reading.
At least in my State, schools are primarily funded via property tax and Federal matching. The Fed matching I believe comes mainly from income tax. That funding comes from taxpayers that may not even have school age children and goes to all kids, to gifted kids and to kids with special needs.
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Not really. She is PHYSICALLY severely disabled, but she is NOT MENTALLY severe/profoundly disabled. There’s a difference. People with severe/profound physical issues, when given the proper tools can be incredibily smart. Whereas people with severe/profound MR would be able to just do very basic communication. For kids with CP, there’s always the possibility that they are smarter then the experts think. Heck, I know of a person with a severe chromosome disorder (the kind of disorder where the kid is in a motorized chair, has a communication board and about ten million different medical problems) who was thought to be profoundly mentally disabled. His parents got him a computer and turns out he can read and write! However, There are always going to be kids who for whatever reason cannot be educated (as we think of it…even on the par of severe/profound MR education) due to things like profound brain abnormalities, like lissencephaly, severe and moderate holoproscephaly, and profound/severe brain damage. Hydranencephaly and so on.
Exactly, and I do think that the overwhelming majority of kids can and do learn very well. Even the overwhelming majority of severe and profound MENTALLY handicapped kids can “learn” at their own level, and can benefit from day programs. Thing is, I think a lot of the people in this thread think I’m globally attacking ALL severe and profound kids for having an education. I’m not. I interact with severe and profound mentally handicapped kids quite regularly. Lots of them can and do learn and interact. Heck, the majority of them can and do learn and interact. Even many if not most profound kids can! One of my friends actually works with a lot of kids like that. (she’s a speech therapist for severe/profound kids) But what I’m talking about are kids who are at the extreme profound end of the spectrum…There’s a site out there, that I do not want to link to, as I have a feeling the mother will get really upset. (I know of her from online interactions) But this is the way she describes her three year old daughter (who has a severe genetic disorder and survived cardiac arrest.)
This is someone who is on an extreme profound level…Yes, she’s loved, but she’s also on a very very basic and primitive level, even for a profound kid. (most profound kids are at the level of babies)
I am not saying that. I never said that…but you CAN observe quite a few kids and realize that they cannot interact except at a very basic level.
Some of them cannot even do so.
Our two day programs are quite similar to those you’ve linked, but in the last 20 years we have operated, we have never been classified as an institution, neither by ourselves or others.
I’m not missing the point at all…back then, they were all judged to be uneducateable…and they were wrong, because they (the State) knew little about proper assessment and treatment of each individual and their capabilities. It would be tragic to repeat that same type of mindset again when we are learning more about these neurological issues that may interfere with an accurate intellectual assessment. We have first hand documentation of this in some the files of the clients we serve, some done by the same doctor and/or psych.
Excellent post, WhyNot.
Let me answer your last question on who decides…Time.
And now for a parallel argument…If you are the State and you suspect/accuse a person of murder, you don’t just jail or execute them on the spot. You have to build a case through solid evidence to put that person at the scene with the weapon and convince a jury that it is irrefutable evidence. Let’s say you did that and the jury finds that person guilty and subject to capital punishment. Do you execute him now, or do you allow time for multiple appeals? How about time for discovery of new evidence that may change the level of the offense or even completely turn the conviction around? How about clemency if extenuating circumstances exist? New technology (ex. DNA testing) that might exonerate the convict? We do this because the State only wants to execute the actual murderer, not an innocent. Even though it costs millions of dollars more to follow this procedure, we do it because the State wants to make sure that no innocent people are executed. But it’s not a perfect system… the State has more than likely already executed innocent people. Would it be in the States best interest to cut funding and execute the convicted right after the trial? No. But, the money saved could go to the rest of the inmates who are not on death row because of lesser convictions, and the State could give them less crowded conditions, better programs to reduce recitivism, etc. Would that be in the best interest of the State if a few more innocent are executed? No. Maybe it would be better to not have capital punishment at all and have each inmate treated the same as possible according to their sentence and have those sentences reviewed if there are new laws made/passed that would affect the entire system of inmates? That seems to be the more progressive view.
I’m not seeing the comparison you’re trying to make from those sites to Lance.
Again, good post…and we are still wondering if these funds ACTUALLY came from a general education budget, or a special education budget. I’ve noticed that some posters here didn’t choose to address this. Even though my son is at a general ed public school, the classroom, teacher and aides are from a special ed budget. It would be all too easy for someone to wrongly assume that my son is sucking up resources from the gen ed budget. I wonder if some posters here are doing the same thing.
On the other hand there is a HUGE difference between say a kid with autism who has the splinter skills to be able to read and write or a kid with CP who can communicate via eyegaze etc vs. the type of kid who has a profound brain issue that no matter WHAT the kid is given, will always be at the mental level of an infant…and some even WORSE!!! . Ever interacted with a kid with significant holoproscencephly? What about lissencephaly? What about hydrancenphaly? They have profound brain issues that cannot rewire themselves…Granted the percentage of kids who have extreme profound issues is really rare…but still…
OK, if you can find me even one single case of a child with lissencephaly being educated in a mainstream classroom with public education funds, I’ll buy you a cookie.
ETA: Actually, I may have to take that offer back, as wikipedia indicates that some minor forms of lissencephaly show “near-normal development and intelligence.” So just goes to show that neither you nor I should be the ones making these decisions, and we certainly shouldn’t be judging them on diagnosis alone.
Again, nobody here is arguing that brain dead kids should be in school. Nobody. And in the real world, few are.
Your problem is that you won’t admit that you don’t know enough about a kid to know if he can learn or not, and you want to be able to declare it just by looking at him, or at his medical chart.