Are Tibetan monks really awful?

[China_Guy]

@blindboyard

In some ways Tibet was, as stated, a medieval society. But in the modern world. Describing it as medieval is no proper excuse for its practice of slavery, serfdom, forced enrolment into religious orders, mutilation as a standard punishment for crime, and so on. Might not be exceptional in world history, but it stands out as one of the worst of places in the modern era, along with Idi Amin’s Uganda, Taleban controlled Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

Of course if Tibet was to become free today it would probably just become another third world country with a decent tourist trade, no doubt the Chinese conquest has had at least that positive long term effect, to permanently efface its worst atrocities. Of course it would also have an extremely large Han Chinese population, unless it indulged in a bit of ethnic cleansing.

As for the Dalai Lama, in his boyhood he associated with SS men while ruling as absolute dictator over a nation practicing the aforementioned terrible and primitive acts and doing little or nothing to alleviate the lot of the working man. Then he disapproved enough of the Commies’ liberalising efforts that he fled the country and became the figurehead of a CIA sponsored Contra war.

I second the recommendation for the Parenti article linked to above, as well.

I still do work in China so I deleted my previous post.

Hey, howsabout we start with agreeing that the Pavorati article is plargarized Communist Chinese BS full of hyperbole, exaggeration and outright fiction. And that the Chinese government, be it KMT or CCP, had a pretty serious axe to grind with Tibet as well as to justify their actions?

No doubt there were abuses in Tibet. And there were abuses by monks in power. But how widespread and systematic this was is certainly up for debate. I have seen pretty weak supporting evidence to the Chinese claims, and certainly my own travels in Tibet, Kham and Amdo in the 1980’s failed to support the idea that Tibet was a living hell and the Chinese liberated and brought enlightenment to the land.

You can also read books written by foreigners that were in Tibet prior to 1950. this free sitehas dozens of books written in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s on Tibet, including Hugh Richardson, Charles Bell, Elizabeth Byrd, Robert Ford, Sarat Chandra Das, etc

Tibet was completely isolated and fairly medieval, so we can’t judge it by the standards of 2010. By the standards of it’s time and neighbors, Tibet was pretty much on par. Certainly pre-1949 China was no better.

Are you also aware that the Kashag, or the Tibetan legislature was also secular?

Regarding Heinrich Harrier, which is where the nazi reference comes from. You can read Seven Years in Tibet to see what he says himself. As you are certainly aware, SS were an elite part of the German military. Not all SS were involved in the final solution. I think it would be a humongeous stretch to think that Heinrich Harrier was some planned brainwashing expedition. Nor has the DL ever expressed anything to do with Nazism. This was just a random internet search on heinrich Harrier so not sure how accurate it is. I read Seven Years a couple of decades ago.
In 1933, Heinrich Harrier joined the underground nazi organizaion, SA, in Austria.
In 1938, he became a member of SS.
In 1939, he was arrested by the British Army when he was mountain-climbing in Tibet region.
In 1944, he fled from the british prison located in India.
In 1946, he arrived in Lahsa and met the 10-year-old Dalai Lama and became his English teacher.

Where is Gedhun Choekyi Nyima?

[boilercake]

@China_Guy

Think GWB and the rationalizations for invading Iraq. You know, Saddam’s rape rooms and all the rest.

How about I think screw you China Guy?

[Elendil_s_Heir]

Interesting discussion - thanks, everyone.

[samclem]

@boilercake

@China_Guy

Think GWB and the rationalizations for invading Iraq. You know, Saddam’s rape rooms and all the rest.

How about I think screw you China Guy?

---

MODERATOR WARNING
How about I warn you, boilercake, for being a jerk. This is General Questions. You don’t attack another poster. This is your second warning this year. It’ll be your last.

samclem Moderator

[Atomic_Mama]

@China_Guy

On all my travels in Tibet, mainly in 1985-89 in what is now the Sichuan and Yunnan Tibetan areas. These were extremely remote areas then (some boast airports now) and many of the places were accessible only on foot. I always asked the locals if they thought life was better or worse. I had *one *guy say better and everyone else was universal in saying things were better pre-Chinese takeover.

These were villagers, nomads, remote monastaries.

There is very obvious segregation and racism in Tibet now against the native Tibetans.

I need to check out French’s book. Everyone of my 80’s trips were illegal as well

Q: I am 61-y-o. My great grandparents were (Christian) missionaries in “western China” in the 1890’s-1930’s until the Communists chased them out (or she retired/he died in WWI helping out “coolies” in France via the Salvation Army). When in China, they were located in “Sichuan” … I inherited some Tibetan artifacts. On their intial posting to China, they went up through Viet Nam. River trips, with Chinese pulling the boats. Local indigenous “Chinese” tribes were also mentioned. (I have forgotten the names / could find out w/ checking out my geneology.) Her surname was Wellwood, and she was later honored by Madame Chang Kai-Shek (Formosa/later Taiwan) for her humanitarian work.

Care to comment more on your travel conditions?

My great grandmonther’s typewritten memoirs (as keyboarded on a manual Olivetti by my mom) were lost in a sewage flood. I wish I could fill in more of the gaps.

[kidneyfailure]

@boilercake

@China_Guy

Think GWB and the rationalizations for invading Iraq. You know, Saddam’s rape rooms and all the rest.

How about I think screw you China Guy?

Dude, seriously…that was uncalled for.

[even_sven]

@kidneyfailure

And when I went there I met plenty of Tibetans of all ages who told me they enjoyed being citizens of China and that their lives had improved since the so-called “invasion.” These were private conversations held between myself and perfect strangers I met on the street or in restaurants, without any guides or translators. I have no reason to believe they were coached or coerced in any way. Of course, I also met people who held negative views of the Chinese, but they were in the minority in my experience.

Well, wouldn’t it be neat if they could have that debate openly and freely and Tibet and the world could have a clear idea of what it’s people think instead of relying on utterances by strangers at restaurants? To get real crazy, maybe they could even take those opinions into account when creating public policy! The mind boggles!

[jackdavinci]

@Sattua

Does it seem to anyone else that Tibet is particularly prone to being made out to be whatever a person wants it to be, without much regard as to what it really is?

If I have to I’ll start a new thread, but isn’t there some specific term for this concept?

[Hypno-Toad]

@jackdavinci

@Sattua

Does it seem to anyone else that Tibet is particularly prone to being made out to be whatever a person wants it to be, without much regard as to what it really is?

If I have to I’ll start a new thread, but isn’t there some specific term for this concept?

Well, there’s “Tabula Rasa” (Blank Slate). This might sort of apply in the sense of people projecting their own preconceptions onto an unknown subject.

[Lee_Vining]

I recall reading an interview with Mother Teresa.
Her work was done in several countries, not just India.

She mentioned that the monks would reject & throw out their sick and dieing on the streets and lock them out of their Temples.

The barefoot sisters of her order would round them up and give them humanitarian nursing care.
It was a real eye opener.

Some don’t want to hear this though.

[jayjay]

@Lee_Vining

I recall reading an interview with Mother Teresa.
Her work was done in several countries, not just India.

She mentioned that the monks would reject & throw out their sick and dieing on the streets and lock them out of their Temples.

The barefoot sisters of her order would round them up and give them humanitarian nursing care.
It was a real eye opener.

Some don’t want to hear this though.

I’m inclined to take anything that Agnes Bojaxhiu said with a very large grain of salt. Especially if it makes her or her order look good.

[Marley23]

@Lee_Vining

I recall reading an interview with Mother Teresa.
Her work was done in several countries, not just India.

She mentioned that the monks would reject & throw out their sick and dieing on the streets and lock them out of their Temples.

The barefoot sisters of her order would round them up and give them humanitarian nursing care.
It was a real eye opener.

A couple of points here:

Mother Teresa mostly worked in Calcutta, which is in eastern India. The Tibetan Buddhist community is centered around Dharamsala, which is in northern India. The cities are nowhere near each other. If she was caring for people who were rejected by monks, they were probably not thrown out by Tibetan monks. So this has nothing to do with Tibet. And there’s some controversy over her activities, which you already seem to know. A discussion of those issues would be a better fit for Great Debates than for General Questions.

[China_Guy]

And was it Tibetan buddhist monks that were being commented on? Tibetan buddishm in India is traditionally confined to Ladakh and the himalayan areas.

Atomic Mama - that’s awesome. I wish those papers survived! Do you know any of the place names?

The link I gave above have several books written in western sichuan/xikang/kham.

I did see some catholic churches from way back when in the area. I’ll update more later.

[Lee_Vining]

@Marley23

@Lee_Vining

I recall reading an interview with Mother Teresa.
Her work was done in several countries, not just India.

She mentioned that the monks would reject & throw out their sick and dieing on the streets and lock them out of their Temples.

The barefoot sisters of her order would round them up and give them humanitarian nursing care.
It was a real eye opener.

A couple of points here:

Mother Teresa mostly worked in Calcutta, which is in eastern India. The Tibetan Buddhist community is centered around Dharamsala, which is in northern India. The cities are nowhere near each other. If she was caring for people who were rejected by monks, they were probably not thrown out by Tibetan monks. So this has nothing to do with Tibet. And there’s some controversy over her activities, which you already seem to know. A discussion of those issues would be a better fit for Great Debates than for General Questions.

You obviously didn’t read my answer, and are quick to blindly defend the Monks in spite of the facts.
Mother Teresa worked all over that area of the world.

Wikipedia:
“By the 1970s, she was internationally famed as a humanitarian and advocate for the poor and helpless, due in part to a documentary and book Something Beautiful for God by Malcolm Muggeridge. She won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979 and India’s highest civilian honour, the Bharat Ratna, in 1980 for her humanitarian work. Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity continued to expand, and at the time of her death it was operating 610 missions in 123 countries, including hospices and homes for people with HIV/AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis, soup kitchens, children’s and family counselling programs, orphanages”

Read the post, comprehend what it says, then perhaps your right honorable take will gain some credibility, if you stop guessing.

[kidneyfailure]

@even_sven

@kidneyfailure

And when I went there I met plenty of Tibetans of all ages who told me they enjoyed being citizens of China and that their lives had improved since the so-called “invasion.” These were private conversations held between myself and perfect strangers I met on the street or in restaurants, without any guides or translators. I have no reason to believe they were coached or coerced in any way. Of course, I also met people who held negative views of the Chinese, but they were in the minority in my experience.

Well, wouldn’t it be neat if they could have that debate openly and freely and Tibet and the world could have a clear idea of what it’s people think instead of relying on utterances by strangers at restaurants? To get real crazy, maybe they could even take those opinions into account when creating public policy! The mind boggles!

Sure would. Not here to debate that with you, though, but to give the side of the story you don’t, as usual.

Your lame sarcasm was noted, BTW.

[China_Guy]

[quote="Lee_Vining, post:34, topic:556572"]

Read the post, comprehend what it says,, then perhaps your right honorable take will gain some credibility, if you stop guessing.
[/QUOTE]
This is GQ. How about a credible cite to back up the claim that Tibetan Buddhists abandoned sick and dying monks? The "I recall and interview" isn't really a credible source and what you have claimed (while possibly true) doesn't pass the smell test.

[Marley23]

@Lee_Vining

Mother Teresa worked all over that area of the world.

Did she work in northern India? As far as I can tell, the Missionaries of Charity don’t have any locations in that part of the country. I think the closest location is in Delhi, which is still several hundred miles away from where most of the Tibetan Buddhists are. There are not many Buddhists in Delhi.

Read the post, comprehend what it says, then perhaps your right honorable take will gain some credibility, if you stop guessing.

I didn’t guess. I asked you a question and you chose to snipe instead of answering it. You blamed “the monks” without being specific. There are also Hindu and Buddhist monks in India, and probably monks of many other orders. We’re talking specifically about Lamaist (Tibetan Buddhist) monks here. If she was not talking about them, then what you said is not relevant to this thread, so I asked you to show that’s who she was talking about. Can you?

[jjimm]

@Sattua

Does it seem to anyone else that Tibet is particularly prone to being made out to be whatever a person wants it to be, without much regard as to what it really is?

Interestingly, that’s precisely why the title of Patrick French’s book has the word “Tibet” twice: one represents the actual Tibet; the other represents the Tibet in (western) people’s minds.

[kidneyfailure]

I second Patrick French’s book. It was a fascinating read.

[Omi_no_Kami]

This has nothing to do with the OP, but while we’re on the subject of books I quite like The Dragon in the Land of Snows: A History of Modern Tibet Since 1947 as as a starting point for anyone interested in modern Tibetan history.