Correct. I think that Serano makes a legitimate point in her work; as a result of the early feminists femininity has been seen to be a handicap at best and a form of volunteering for male oppression at worst. The mistaken belief that to be strong, independent, forceful, and equal meant you needed to take on those aspects of masculinity. The point is to be femininely strong, not masculinely strong, etc.
I’m not sure if the unconverted masses can be easily converted. Certainly one essay means nothing to the sort of person who every time they read about transsexuals surreptitiously drops their hands to their penis to check it’s still there, and who feels that they need to hoot and cheer at Jerry Springer any time “My Husband is a Tricked-out Tranny!” is the topic. Or the woman who is so terrified that someone might witness her in a bathroom stall with x-ray vision that she crosses her legs before getting up from the toilet.
To be honest, I have no idea what that means. I know plenty of strong willed women who are undoubtedly feminine, but their forcefulness seems orthogonal to their sex. Obviously we have to get over the “sexually independent woman = slut” view, but I think that’s counter to what you said: it means we need a common view of what it means to be sexually independent.
Sure. There are probably a lot of those people, and the best we can hope for there is that they’ll die off over time and the new generation won’t have so many. The way I see it, the ones with a purely emotional response aren’t going to be swayed by a different emotional appeal. The rest–maybe a small population, but non-zero–can be swayed by evidence. The best evidence we have is that sex reassignment works better than the alternative, and that until we know more we should go with what works best.
What evidence do you claim I ignored?
Is giving an answer to a question ignoring it? I’m sorry if you didn’t like the answer to your extremely theoretical question.
I, didn0t get any answer for my hypothetical one.
So, we agree that surgery is an option.
Thanks
So, again we agree that surgery is an option, with the proper safeguards.
Agreed that maybe, at least in my case, too much enphasis was given to surgery.
Agreed, especially since you accept that
a) transsexuality is a disease
b) We treat it but no cure it.
Which are, by the way, my points.
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Actually, there is still a role for surgery in the treatment of mental illness. It is rare, and there are tons of hoops and red tape to get through for approval these days, but in severe, intractable, and life-threatening cases it can be considered as an option. You have to exhaust all other options first, of course. It does help some people but the risks are high. Also, these days it’s not an icepick through an eyesocket, it’s much more finely targeted.
Keeping in mind that untreated transsexuality may have a suicide risk of 1/3, extreme measures might be justified.
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Yep.
A brain with no body cuts to the heart of brain vs body.
Two hemispheres in different bodies addresses what issues raised in this thread? Left hempisphere vs right?
This makes it sound like if being transgender can be shown NOT to be a mental illness, then it is more valid, more real, more of a “physical” disability than being mentally ill (and therefore the request to be viewed as the opposite sex of their biological gender should be honored). But mental illness often is correlated with chemical changes or physical malformations in the brain, environmental causes, and genetics. For instance, this link states that research shows these various causes for schizophrenia: Genetics, prenatal exposure to a viral infection, low oxygen levels during birth, exposure to a virus during infancy, early parental loss or separation, and physical or sexual abuse in childhood. Many of those factors are every bit as “real”/physical as the possibility that a transgender person was exposed to the “wrong” hormone for their physical gender before birth.
No, not a space man or a dragon or Napoleon, but definitely there are physical triggers that might give someone a mental illness that made them THINK they were a space man or a dragon or Napoleon.
I think in the context of some of the attitudes displayed by stevenova that comment is right in line with his thinking. But you are correct, genetalia do not define sexual orientation any more than they define sexual identity.
I just don’t think this grasps the essence of what it is to be told your whole life, from your earliest memories, that you are messed up, that everyone sees you differently than you see yourself. It’s one thing to take a whole person who has a relatively stable identity and then subject them to a change, it’s another to fiddle with the very formative process of shaping who you are.
I am certain if I found myself in that situation I would find a way to cope, but it is not nearly the same thing.
Something to speculate on, but how would you know?
That would be a very different society, wouldn’t it.
So you know what it’s like to be transgender? You’ve experienced it?
I’m glad you agree.
You seem awfully concerned that someone might be cutting off some genetalia somewhere, for someone who thinks others genitals are none of your business.
My comment was to learn to accept them in society and treat them like people. You don’t have to get over them - you can throw a little tirade every time you think about the idea someone might ask you to use a different pronoun like stevenova does. I’m simply stating my opinion that the world would be better if everyone got over it.
Why shouldn’t it? Humans are naturally dimorphic, with a variety of development misfires that can trigger variances from either “ideal” state. The human brain is also a construct of the biology that forms our bodies, so is it any wonder that there are two nominal states, and a spectrum of variety for various mismatches of various degrees?
What about bathrooms are not cultural? Needing to excrete waste is not cultural. Everything about having a specific room to do it in, having specific arrangements for equipment and methods (paper vs hand, bidet or not), and how we segregate is all cultural.
Some people may be oversensitive to the idea of calling transexuality a disease on the grounds of feeling judged by the ones using the term. It is fair to say that something is mixed up with transexuals, they certainly have a problem. I don’t think anyone is arguing that it does not need treatment, the disagreement seems to be over the validity of a certain treatment option.
That’s a very good point. It must be deeply traumatic to spend one’s formative years with that kind of conflict.
I mentioned earlier the case of David Reimer–a clear biological male that was raised as female due to a surgical accident. He ultimately found out his original sex and began living as male immediately afterward. Later, he committed suicide due to deep psychological trauma.
So that argues that some people have a very strong sense of inner identity. But it’s just one data point, and it’s co-mingled with other factors such as an apparently abusive psychologist.
Obviously, it’s a very good thing there aren’t more cases like David, but it does mean there’s very little data to go on.
It’s a thread about transexuality and mental disease, not about 20/20 cricket. Genital surgery is bound to be discussed.
I’s also like to point out the several times I’ve said that surgery is an option.
Treat like people? Wherever did you get the idea that I was against it?
Different pronoun? Out of common courtesy? Sure. Conviction? No
Treating people well. Wherever did you get the idea that I was against it?
No, it isn’t. Who said otherwise?
What is cultural? Separate bathrooms.
All the time here on the SDMB they tell me not to be oversensitive and stuff like that. If you particiapte here, you need thick skin, which is par for the course on anonymous boards.
Yes the argument is about treatment because the OP question if transsexual are mentally ill
Your phrasing is still very odd, but I think I see what you mean. Until recently, the dichotomy between sex and gender was not well understood, so of course people often considered them interchangeable. Happily, that is now changing, no thanks to people like you who resist the change.
Powers &8^]