Are we all just far too interested in "clean"?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I just read this thread. I don’t have a pouff but I do own those nifty scrub-all-over-gloves (best thing ever. Never had an ingrown hair since I bought them).

Generations of people lived without disinfectents (ok they had shorter life spans) but are we cleaning ourselves out of existence?

Are we making ourselves more at risk to the nasties by constantly eliminating them?

Shit, when I was a kid we merrily crawled about the garden sucking on dirt or whatever. My generation (I’m 38) seemes to be very allergy free.

Are we making ourselves sick while we “protect” ourselves?

2

Yeah, I’m the OP of that other thread. I definitely stand by my assertions, since my job keeps me in the know on these things.

I hear this train of thought a lot. A lot of people that don’t work in the medical field do wonder what the fuss is all about and think it can’t really be as bad as we doomsayers think. Alarmists, the lot of us!

However. Infection is a real threat, and always has been. There’s not only bacteria, which can be life- and limb-threatening, there are also fungi, viruses, yeasts, and molds which can be disfiguring and/or dangerous.

Thousands of people die each year in hospitals after minor procedures due to bacterial infection. I personally call at least five people each day to tell them that their rash, “acne”, “boils”, and “cysts” are actually staphylococcus bacteria infections. This includes MRSA, which can be resistant to many antibiotics and life-threatening. Now I work in a derm office, but for two years I worked for an Infectious Disease doctor, where I saw and learned a lot. I’ve personally seen many, many people lose fingers, toes, feet, and whole legs due to bacteria.

In my office we have 5-7 of me working every day. If I’m calling at least 5 people every day with staph, each one of the other MAs are, too. And we’re just one office. People, there’s a whole lot of staph out there. And other things. If you really researched it, and gave it too much thought, you might freak out.

I try not to obsess about it, and I succeed. I don’t live my life in terror of germs, but I do take every precaution that I can.

3

Interesting question calm kiwi.

In the Sydney paper this morning there was a question in one of those “Modern Etiquette” columns from a parent wondering whether it was still permissible to allow a child to blow out the candles on the cake at his birthday party. Apparently many parents now object to this practice because it “spreads too many germs”. They prefer to see each child given an individual cupcake at a birthday party. Of course, I almost choked on my cup of tea when I read it, having come from the generation of kids who not only blew out the candles but then proceeded to smear the cake all over each other during the inevitable food fight - before retreating to the backyard for waterfights, rumbles in the dirt etc etc.

4

Supergerms

This article is about increased exposure to NSAIDs, antibiotics, and pesticides, but I think lack of exposure to dirt could have much the same effect. I do wonder sometimes if our increased attention to hygiene only means that we’ll have to increasingly protect ourselves from bigger and better contagions, until we’re all locked away in our own little Howard Hughes germ free zones, and use computers to meet our partners, who we will breed with using sterilized turkey basters. With all our precautions, people still get sick, and it seems like people are sick longer than they used to be. People now are laid up with the flu for weeks; when I was in high school (which was only six years ago!) I got over the flu in two days. I think we underestimate the ability of bacteria and viruses to evolve and mutate; these organisms change at an exponential rate compared to human evolution and I think overuse of medicine and disinfectant just speeds up that process.

(IANAMedical Professional, etc.)

5

Yes, well, I work in the medical field in as much of a capicity as you do, and I think that most people are WAY too clean.

I also think that people should take simple precautions to keep bacteria in check, such as actually washing their shower pouff once and a while. You know, in hot water, with soap. I put mine in the dryer. I’ve been assured that that will kill any tiny beasties on it just fine.

6

What on God’s good Earth is a “Shower Pouf”?

Frankly if you’re going in the shower with a “pouf”, germs are the least of your worries!

As to the OP I agree. I have never been over protective of my brats as I feel that a bit of dirt is a good thing and will toughen them up and develop their immune systems (within reason).

At their school it seems that every other kid is “allergic” to something or has asthma, which certainly wasn’t the case when I was a lad. It may well be that the rather over protective bubbles they have been brought up in has something to do with this. (Or it may have something to do with the crap they eat).

7

This is a shower pouf:
http://www.sugardaisy.com/piprshpo.html

Shower poufs are lovely, but I haven’t used one in years because I’ve always had an icky feeling about them just sitting there in the damp. I have to admit, though, that I rarely use washcloths either, and don’t use much soap, and what soap I DO use is handcrafted, which is worlds away from Zest or Dove. (When I DO use washcloths, it’s strictly one use and then into the laundry–same with towels. People scoff, but that’s what I do. :slight_smile: )

I do like a good scrub occasionally, so I use a salt/oil blend–scrubs great, washes away, and moisturizes.

As to the germ issue, I think both OPs are correct, and I don’t really think they’re necessarily contradicting each other. Why? Because although shower poufs are great at exfoliating, they abrade the skin (tiny microscopic scratches, sure, but that’s all it takes), and I don’t want to abrade my skin with something that might be full of bacteria. As trublmkr pointed out, you’re essentially rubbing bacteria/germs/bad stuff INTO the abrasions caused by the scrubbie, thus opening the door to infection. That seems like common sense–you wouldn’t, after all, clean a scrape with a paper towel that you just wiped the counter with, right?
(Of course, many people might keep them scrupulously clean–but if the darn thing sits in a soapdish in the tub for a few days, it could be brewing trouble.)

I think calm kiwi has a point too, though. I’m not convinced that making every damn product we buy “anit-bacterial” is the answer. I don’t NEED anti-bacterial dish soap, for heaven’s sake. I don’t want to kill every single germ my children encounter, because I’d like for them to develop some immunities. And I’d prefer bacteria and germs to continue to be susceptible to anti-bacterials when I need them to be, instead of becoming resistant because I expose generations of them to New Improved AntiBacterial Expensive Stuff. I’ve read enough about antibiotic-resistant diseases to be concerned about this stuff.

Heh. Talk to me again after I work at my new job (Nurse Tech in Surgery) for a few months. Maybe I’ll have a whole new attitude.

Best,
karol

8

To the crafty people:

How easy would it be to make a pouf? That way we could have a ready supply.

9

It may be what they eat Owl but it makes me wonder when you see mothers drive themselves nuts trying to keep everything sterile.

When I was kid we firmly believed in the ‘30 second rule’, if you dropped anything yummy on the floor you could still eat it providing it hadn’t been there longer then it took you to count to 30. When the foodstuff merited it we counted very s-l-o-w-l-y.

My best friend’s brother could have been the taste tester for the Fear Factor. That kid would have, could have and DID eat anything for a dare…live bugs were a walk in the park for him.

My child is a wussy, geeky type chap so he has never tested the boundaries of dirty/germy/grossness himself but as a diligent mum I did it for him :D. I let the dog kiss him often, I let him eat stuff dropped on the floor, I let him crawl about in the dirt (I never even stopped him from eating dirt…maybe I should go to hell) and horror of horrors he has a pouf (he claims flannels or wash clothes are yucky) which is at least 3 months old and has never seen a washing machine, it honestly never occured to me before…it is covered in soap and spends an EON under hot running water everyday.

Despite all my efforts to kill the child off he remains healthy and allergy free.

I really should have feed him dairy products before he was a year old…oh that’s right, I did.

10

I think the bizarre obsession that modern westerners have with toilet seats is another sign that we’ve fetishized being clean.

Apparently now, at least for women, it’s considered normal to “squat” on the toilet or line the entire seat with toilet paper so that not one piece of skin comes into contact with the seat. If I didn’t know any better, I would say that these people have OCD if it were not for the fact that it’s so common. Same thing with taps and door handles in restrooms.

11

That I what I was trying to say.

I am open to being corrected but aren’t many antibiotics losing effectivness because of over-use/incorrect use?

Surely all this antibacterial, over sterileness will lead to the same.

(good luck with the new job)

12

Ok I am a freak who feeds the child dirt and sits on the loo. Death, and a nasty death at that, must be just round the corner.

Who the hell doesn’t sit on the loo seat? When I was a wee young thing my Nana always told me to sit on a square of loo paper rather then the seat. My defiance has never killed me.

13

It is very common in the US to not sit on the toilet seat in a public restroom. For some it’s an obsession with germs but for a lot of us it’s more because it is so common and peoples aim is so bad. I’m a guy so it’s not as much of an issue for me but on the occasion that I venture into a public stall the seat is almost invariably spattered with urine or worse. In the latter case I’ll find another stall but depending on the urgency I will resort to the hover method. I clean up after myself if necessary but unfortunately there are a lot of people who don’t.

14

They are. Same thing with the ingredient in antibacterial soap - overuse is (last I read) helping lead to resistant bacteria to that. We do not need antibacterial hand soap and dish soap in the home! At work (I work in a medical center), we’re told to use gel containing alcohol as hand sanitizer, as that won’t produce resistance, at least.

I try to be careful about cleanliness, but that’s because I primarily work with patients with AIDS. I got the influenza vaccine, and it protected me - my husband got actual influenza earlier this month, and it laid him low. Contrary to the “you need to let your immune system get a workout” theory, he has a great immune system that will typically rip through even the toughest colds in a day or two, while I linger on for a week or more. This flu not only kept him out of work for a few days plus the weekend (unheard of for him), but he felt weak for a week or two after. Meanwhile I’m rejoicing that I got the vaccination, because I shudder to think how many patients I could have unwittingly infected had I been carrying the virus. (I contracted actual influenza back when I was a kid, and was sick at least a week. That virus family is nasty.)

I worked in pediatrics for several years before this, and got pretty much every cold that came through our clinic. Colds still hit me hard, though I’m sure a family history of sinus problems doesn’t help there. I figure if years of cold virus exposure didn’t toughen me up, it’s silly for me to not take reasonable precautions and attempt to avoid those viruses instead. (Antibacterial soap and not letting kids blow out candles are not reasonable. Personally, I think careful use of bleach and other things are.)

Not sitting on the seat is insane, frankly. Our medical center even provides those slip covers (I prefer to call them “ass gaskets” outside of polite company), and some women are too stupid/lazy/paranoid to use those, and squat instead. It really messes with your day when you go into a dim stall and sit down, only to realize you’ve sat in someone’s dribblings. Hell, our bathrooms are cleaned 2-3 times per day; they aren’t filthy by any means.

15

I agree, sitting on the seat is the way to go. The people who hover because they say that seats are too dirty are the same people who are making the seats dirty. Of course there’ll be urine and Og knows what else on the seats if you’re trying to do a blind aim for the bowl when hovering your ass several inches above.

16

The flu is usually a new strain each flu season so your body has to learn to recognize the new virus. If he hadn’t been exposed to a related strain his immune system could have been unprepared.

I take a middle ground aproach to germs. I try and avoid obviously sick people if possible but I don’t worry about minor quantities of germs in bathrooms or restaurants. Those places are where my body gets exposed to the nasties in sufficiently small quantities to overcome them and learn how to kill them. At least that’s my theory, if it isn’t true then the positive attitude that goes along with this belief is helping me avoid illnesses.

I just took a five hour flight on Continental airlines that really worried me. Screw smoking or non-smoking flights, could I have a “no hacking wet cough” flight please? There were so many gurgling phlegm generators on the plane I thought I was on a plague ship.

17

I have this theory that the recent fetishisation of hygiene is a quasi-religious “purification” ritual, where germs are equated with evil. Excessive concern with cleanliness, health or diet is coming to be viewed as more a matter of morality than physical well-being.

calm kiwi, in our house we still observe the 30 second rule when it comes to dropped food, and Little Case, who rolls in cowshit, has permanently abraded knees and elbows thanks to regular tractor crashes, and thinks tomato sauce is a food group, has never had a day’s serious illness in his 3 years. The broken arm or leg is almost inevitable before he’s 10.

Oh yeah, and when I was in intermediate I ate a live axolotl on a bet. Never did me any harm, except possibly to my karma.

18

I have the issue with taps and doorknobs, myself. My problem is that people touch the taps with their dirty hands before washing, then touch them again to turn off the water, picking the germs right back up.

I would no more touch a doorknob in a bathroom than I would a dead rat. People do not always wash their hands. (I use a paper towel, or, if having no other option, my sleeve, to open the door.)

In fact, I do not use public bathrooms at all unless the situation is desperate.

19

I went over 25 years without taking antibiotics. I’m afraid of doctors, and any minor infections I got my body took care of. I slept with dogs and rode horses and never got sick.

In an attempt to deal with my fear of doctors I volunteered for a clinical trial of an AIDS vaccine, headed up by the NIH. According to the nurses I dealt with at Vanderbilt University, I had the strongest immune response to the vaccine of any volunteer throughout the country. I feel that because my body has had to build up its immune system to battle everyday germs, it is stronger than most people who want an antibiotic every time they cough. People get sick but they don’t want the inconvenience of illness. They want a magic potion rather than rest and letting their body do its job.

StG

20

FYI:
The most important aspect of handwashing is FRICTION–not soap or water tempature.

I know this for 2 reasons: 1. I’m an Rn and 2. it was question on my boards.

You all need to scrub–not the polite finger dipped in tepid water and barely touch the guest hand towel like you were taught. You can wash your hands with sand, if circs demand it, you just need to generate enough friction to mechanically rid your hands of the germs.

IMO, anti-bacterial soaps just breed drug-resistant microbes. Use good ole Dial or what have you.

But they’re right about the taps–use the paper towel to turn off the taps, otherwise you are just re-infecting yourself.