Are We Ready for First Contact?

The only way to assess the task of understanding a completely alien language as “pretty trivial” is if you don’t really understand anything about neurolinguistics and the basics principles of communication at a cognitive level. Although addressing the field in even summary fashion is beyond the scope of even a long post, it is worth defining some basic terminology and briefly addressing the essential elements.

The study of language as a cognitive function has three essential aspects, which are syntax (the rules that structure the language), phonology (the characteristic sounds or other signals used to transmit information), and semantics (the actual knowledge content that is transferred). Language by itself is not communication, and in fact many animals from hive insects to birds can communicate in surprisingly sophisticated detail even though they do not have a structured language of any kind. What language permits is the communication of abstract concepts by referencing some kind of shared experience or knowledge base. We are able to talk to other people in the same culture because not only do we have agreement on the syntax and phonology but we also understand basic concepts of experience, both external (light, dark, dry, wet, et cetera) and internal (affective responses such as fear, anger, curiosity, lust, et cetera; physiological sensations such as hunger, pain, fatigue; and cognitive structures such as stories or games).

With someone from a different culture who speaks a different language, we have to learn a new syntax and if the new language is separated enough often a different phonology, but there are always commonalities regardless of how different the cultural experience is; we all have affective responses that are hardwired into primitive areas of the brain and a common physiology, and the vast majority of human societies have pretty close analogues in social structures such as marriage and kinship, tribal or group leadership and following, et cetera. In short, we have some references to relate to that are common to the human experience regardless of what your mother tongue is and what society you grew up in, many of which are core to human physiology, and the cognitive and affective structures of the brain.

However, there is no guarantee of any of this with an alien intelligence. Indeed, we should reasonably expect their physiology to be nothing like us or any Earth life given that it will have developed independently on a unique evolution. They may not experience hunger, or experience the kind of emotions we do in response to stimuli, and they almost certainly won’t have any commonalities in language even if they use a spoken language (and there is a wide array of potential alternatives). Even the supposedly fundamental concepts of mathematics as the basis for communication are not assured; our concept of mathematics is intrinsically based upon discrete “counting numbers” and ways of expressing fractions of whole numbers, which is natural for us but an alien intelligence might see everything in terms of statistical distributions or even more exotic ways of quantifying their experience to the point that even mathematics would be mutually incomprehensible.

Our cognition is highly structured around language as we use it; even when we aren’t speaking to other people, we use language to interpret the world and demarcate it internally into useable categories; for a completely alien species to have meaningful communication would require some common basis for interpretation which may not exist. This isn’t to say that they could not listen to or read words, back out a syntax, and create some kind of cause and effect response, but that is about as much actual communication as your training a dog, and indeed, the gulf in intellect and comprehension between an advanced alien intelligence and humanity might be as wide as that between us and dogs. The notion that an alien intelligence will want to or find it useful to communicate with us is a far more common and unlikely trope of science fiction.

Dolphins are probably not trying to communicate with us, but that is exactly the point; despite decades of experience and research, we can’t even figure out what they are saying to each other, even though the complexity of their verbalizations and degree of encephalization suggests that they are capable of complex communication well beyond merely expressing affective states the way most animals do. But our lack of a common experience makes it very difficult to even guess at what any combinations of clicks and whistles might mean precisely because of the complexity that such language might express. You can hypothesize that an alien intelligence would by dint of their advances have an ability to interpret language that is far more advanced than ours, but even if so it doesn’t mean that they would enjoy sufficient commonality of experience to actually be able to comprehend the semantics expressed through language.

Stranger

Nice ad hominem / poison the well there, but what you may have missed is that I was speaking comparatively.
Not trivial, but compared to X trivial.

I think your breakdown of terminology was unnecessary.

Your point was basically that they may not have much shared experience with us. But firstly, they will have some things in common: like I say, a general intelligence that can solve abstract problems for one, the desire and ability to make space-going vessels for two.
I mean you say things even like “They may not experience hunger” which I think is quite implausible – not that they experience hunger now but how could they have had no evolutionary history of hunger?

But in any case, we live very different lives to ants, yet we can understand ants very well. I think that an ET visiting earth – bearing in mind they are likely to be at the very least millions of years ahead of us in technological development – will understand us vastly better than we understand ants, or even understand ourselves.

I’m sorry you interpreted my explanation as ad hominem but as you characterized my previous post as a “popular meme is a flawed extrapolation,” I felt it necessary to give a more detailed explanation for the basis of my statement.

It’s a ironic that you make an analogy to our understanding of ants, because although we know a lot about how ants communicate with using pheromones, we don’t make any effort to communicate with them because there is no meaningful dialogue we could have with an ant. An advanced alien intelligence may view us in the same intellectual contempt as we do with ants; even if they can interpret our language, there may be no exchange worth having.

Stranger

No, mathematics in the sense of counting numbers and operations upon them are defined axiomatically. We might have been led to this by counting rocks, but counting rocks or anything else is not necessary. And even a civilization which understands statistics intuitively, without the many flaws we humans have, would have to develop axiomatic mathematics also.
But even if they don’t have rocks, the stars are countable. And if they don’t know what stars are, we won’t have to worry about them visiting.

If an advanced civilization would view us with such contempt that they think us not communicating with, this discussion is moot, isn’t it? It could explain why there has been no contact.
If they do contact us, they would be aware that we are intelligent, though not as intelligent as them. I’ve read at least a few stories about alien races who consider our achievements as purely instinctive, and not indicative of intelligence, but they were satires or humor, and not really much of a basis for a discussion.

I would put it this way.
I would consider mathematics a toolkit for deriving non-obvious facts from obvious facts based on a simple foundation of deductive logic (and note this largely sidesteps the question of whether maths is “out there”).

I would expect an alien species would have some form of mathematics, and they would be able to verify our maths as correct. But our toolkits will not match up: their maths will have likely spun off in very different directions to ours.

Agreed.
But whether they would care to talk to us, and whether they could decipher our languages, are two different things.

All they have to do is look at pretty much every movie we’ve ever made about alien contact to know that we’re not. Even when the aliens have ostensibly good intentions (a la “V”) we end up making them the bad guys and go to War. Very few examples of Kumbaya first contact.

I really would depend on the methods and approach of the aliens. “Lizard people” infiltration over decades would not work. Motherships suddenly showing up over big cities would not work. Taking over the airwaves with a welcome message would not work. As soon as any of these happened there’d be mass panic even if they seemed benevolent. We’re very untrusting and tend to want to go to war with “others”.

Basically it would have to be very subtle and non-threatening, but not too subtle. I really don’t know how they’d pull it off.

For them to make it here they’d have to be extremely advanced technologically, so they probably would monitor us for a long time. And probably would be capable of some light infiltration without detection. This is, assuming they had good intentions.

I really don’t see any reason they’d come talk to us savages with nothing but good intentions, and as soon as they started with the “we’ll cure cancer, etc. for your raw materials” it’s going to raise hackles. We’re not going to want to give away ANY raw materials. So what’s the point?

I’d like to add that I don’t think there is any intelligent life within a reasonable distance to us, unless they have some sort of FTL technology, which I don’t think is possible.

Will they, though? The driving assumption is that an alien intelligence will recognize basic axioms of mathematics such as integers, or transendental such as pi, e, and phi, but these are fundamentally based upon percieving the world as discrete chunks and orthogonal planes. It is nearly impossible for us to relate to any other perception of the world because that it how our brains model the world from our perception but there is no guarantee that an alien life form would perceive the world in any way that we do. They may experience and model the world around them as a series of interacting fractal functions or some kind of interacting family of stochastic distributions and never actually develop or use whole numbers, which are actually a completely artificial conceptual construct at anything above the quantum level (and arguably not there if you view quantum systems as being overlapping collections of intertwined probability distributions). The assumption that aliens will have some commonalities of thought processes, emotional responses, perceptions and sensations, ways of quantifying the world, et cetera, is not based on anything other than a lack of expansiveness of how intelligence could develop.

Stranger

Also, I’ll question the notion that they’ll be “more intelligent” than us.

Sure, to travel from Tau Ceti to Earth is going to require technology that is much more advanced than ours.

OK, now imagine hu-mons. We dick around for a few thousand years here in the solar system, our technology advances, and we’re finally wealthy enough and advanced enough to send a mission to Tau Ceti, whatever that means.

Are those hu-mons a thousand years from now smarter than the hu-mons of today? I mean, maybe they’re transhuman. But if they aren’t, then they’re no smarter than us, just like we’re no smarter than a peasant from 1018 AD. Sure, our technology is better, our knowledge is better, but our intelligence is not better.

So, aliens from Tau Ceti with the technology to cross 8 light years don’t have to be super-smart. They may be pretty dumb, even. It’s just that their ancestors solved the problems and they’re just pressing the buttons on the blinky-blinkies that make them go.

But the more likely outcome is that they’re not going to resemble what we imagine as “aliens”, any more than they’ll resemble the angels or demons of fairies that someone from 1718 might imagine. That is, they’ll probably be machines, or transhuman/transalien. Maybe back on Tau Ceti there will still be squishy meatbags that created the things that crossed 8 light years, but those squishy meatbags probably won’t be along for the ride, unless they’re the ship mascots.

I don’t know how to say this delicately, so I’ll just say it. We’re savages. We’re constantly killing one another. We’re stripping the planet of its non-renewable resources and destroying the environment. Greed and injustice are rife. Why in the world would a truly advanced civilization want anything whatsoever to do with us? Observe us? Yes. Make contact? No, thanks.

This bit about how they won’t contact us until we’re ready? Pure nonsense, as evidenced by our history of exploration and exploitation unchecked until laws are created by those who do not personally profit by said exploration. Until we have some actual aliens whose civilization we can study in depth, we have no basis to believe that our particular outlook on other civilizations is unique in the universe.

And yet humans carry on vast and intricate trade, cure diseases, invent and use the Internet, the vast majority of people in the developed (and even developing) world live at peace with each other, humans help total strangers, form 200-nation organizations, hold Nobel Prizes, establish hundreds of thousands of schools, invent new technologies, cooperate with each other in a million different ways, etc.

And yet we hate each other over very minor differences and wage war over even less.

We’ve gotten pretty far for savages, and there is no way to say how much further we can go and yet remain savages, therefore assuming that civilizations that are more advanced than ours cannot possibly also be savage is a bit presumptuous.

But much of our mathematics models things that we cannot perceive, such as n-dimensional spaces. Even if they started from another place, they would derive arithmetic as they developed mathematics.
I’d also like to see a reasonable evolutionary pathway directly to the kind of stuff you can make up without going through simple light sensitivity (or sound sensitivity, perhaps) which represented the beginning of the evolution of the eye.

They would not be equivalent sure, but there would be some parts that are intersecting.
If we try to communicate through math we’d start with counting numbers, not differential equations.

in arms and bombs

to keep us healthy enough to kill each other, with a possible spin off in spreading diseases, like Europeans have done

Invented with military funding to keep our communication running to strike back and kill people, and used by terrorists to help kill people

sure, peace lets the economy grow to build taxes to fund the killing.
Alliances of total strangers are good in wars.

established by a guy who invented something useful in peace and in war. Churchill got a Nobel in Literature to reward him for killing people, but Peace prize being too blatant.

including military academies

The development of new technologies is accelerated in war time, and there are few groups as well integrated and cohesive as military units.

I’m not really this cynical, but if all our military spending world wide was converted to peace spending, imagine what we could do. Alas, a lot of the military spending is necessary, which is my point.

I rather expect that no species is ever ready for First Contact. Second Contact, maybe, but you can’t extrapolate anything from a single data point, and before First Contact, that’s all we have. The optimistic assumption is that there’s already a full society out there of sophonts, who have had enough experience interacting with each other that they have come up with some sort of schema of sophonts, which they can thereby fit us into and understand us… but we still wouldn’t understand them, at least until they found the right baby-talk to explain the schema and other aspects of galactic society to us.

If they’re deliberately avoiding us until “the right time”, then my best guess at “the right time” is when it becomes impossible (or at least impractical or inconvenient) for them to avoid us any longer. That’s probably somewhere around the point of interstellar travel.

As for mathematics: Some great mathematician once said that God created the counting numbers, and all else is of Man. But I would actually turn that around: God created the irrationals, and all else is of Man. Integers almost never actually occur in the real world, certainly not in contexts that have been accessible to us for long enough for us to evolve in response to them. One apple, two apples only really makes sense if all apples are the same size, which they’re not.

Finally, for a concrete example of how intelligence varies: When two humans without any common language first meet, how do they start communicating? By pointing, of course… but that’s a behavior completely alien to almost all other species on the planet, even including the other great apes. In other words, if we ever meet aliens, they might not even understand what we mean when we point at things.

Agreed, and if I implied otherwise it was not deliberate.