Are White People in Denial?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=xtisme]

I find it hard to believe that anyone REALLY thinks that there is NO racism in the US…or in the world for that matter…despite what that poll says. But I also think that at some point people start to resent the constant stream of accusations and finger pointing. I know that a lot of hispanics (many in my own family) sometimes resent how blacks constantly pull the race card…and forget that they aren’t the ONLY folks in this country that a problem with racism. Or when they (or hispanics, or asians) don’t really take a hard look around and see that, while things aren’t perfect they are a HELL of a lot better than they were when I was a kid…and infinitely better than when MY folks immigrated to this country as kids.

[/QUOTE]

Would these hispanics that resent how blacks constantly pull the race card be of african descent?

42

[QUOTE=Sumisu_919]

Who would want to change a system that’s working for them? If issues of race don’t effect you and it’s not personal to you, you’re not really likely to thing about changing things that don’t, in your reality require changing. It’s like always having money, the notion of not having it tends to be abstract and consequently you have no real idea of what it’s like to be without it.
[/QUOTE]

I vote Democrat 95% of the time, despite the fact that Republicans would probably be better for my wallet. I believe in restructuring affirmative action so that it depends on socioeconomics rather than race despite the fact that that would make my own children ineligible to be aided by it as they would be now.

I think the average person believes in fairness more than you give him credit for.

43

[QUOTE=Fiveyearlurker]
A question that I’ve wanted to ask is whether you believe that the everyday white guy who disagrees with you on a complex issue with racial implications, say something like affirmative action, actually wants to see the day where there is true equality between the races. Where there is no income or educational disparity. Where taxis pick up the first guy they see, and test scores are identical between the races. Do you believe that ultimately we all (or 90% of us) want to get to the same place, or do you believe that the majority of white people want to maintain the status quo?

Because I think that’s what gets lost in these discussions. Personally, I think the vast majority of us want to get to that place, we just disagree on how we’re going to do it.
[/QUOTE]

I agree, in that I don’t think anyone likes to live in a blatantly unequal society.

I think most people fall into two groups: 1) people who believe that racial inequalities exist and need to be fixed and and 2) people who understand that racial inequalities existed in the past, but don’t feel they exist currently. (There’s a minority who believe that racial inequalities exist and don’t need to be fixed, but let’s ignore them.)

I think the majority of Americans belong to the second group. If we’re already equal (there are no barriers, everyone has the same opportunities, the negative legacies of the past no longer impact today, etc.), then all this talk about racism and race relations seems like so much bull. If we’re already equal, why bother with Affirmative Action? Why blame racism on disparate patterns that could easily stem from other problems–problems that haven’t and probably will never be solved like classism?

So I don’t think “How do we get there?” is the question everyone’s in disagreement about. I think it’s more like “Are we there yet?” Unfortunately, I think differences in perception are harder to reconcile than differences in politics.

44

[QUOTE=Sumisu_919]
Would these hispanics that resent how blacks constantly pull the race card be of african descent?
[/QUOTE]

No doubt some are. In addition (to the point I assume you are making here), I know Hispanics who resent people of (native) Indian decent…while having Indian blood in them. And Hispanics who resent and despise ALL whites…while having white blood in their veins. And of course there are Hispanics (like me) who resent and even despise the Spanish…while having Spanish blood in their veins.

Racism doesn’t have to make sense…in fact, most times it DOESN’T make much sense (I personally think its one of the stupider things we as a species do). I suppose its a human thingy (it must be somehow hardwired into us, since afaik EVERY human has it inborn)…but logically its rather silly. For instance I would have to say that a large percentage of American Blacks who’s families have been here since the time of slavery have some white blood in their veins…so, looked at that way its silly for BOTH sides to resent or be prejudiced against the other. Isn’t it?

-XT

45

[QUOTE=Fiveyearlurker]
I vote Democrat 95% of the time, despite the fact that Republicans would probably be better for my wallet. I believe in restructuring affirmative action so that it depends on socioeconomics rather than race despite the fact that that would make my own children ineligible to be aided by it as they would be now.

I think the average person believes in fairness more than you give him credit for.
[/QUOTE]

Where were these average people during Slavery, the Jim Crow era, etc? Busy???

46

[QUOTE=Sumisu_919]

Who would want to change a system that’s working for them? If issues of race don’t effect you and it’s not personal to you, you’re not really likely to thing about changing things that don’t, in your reality require changing. It’s like always having money, the notion of not having it tends to be abstract and consequently you have no real idea of what it’s like to be without it.
[/QUOTE]

A lot of Jewish people came down to the south during the 50s and 60s to help people register to vote and otherwise exercise their civil liberties. Were Jews from states like New York really affected strongly by the racial prejudice faced by black people in Georgia, Alabama, or Mississippi? Nah.

The nice thing about having the ability to communicate is being able to relate to others what certain things are like. Granted, I have no idea how homosexuals feel, but I can hear their experience with discrimination and decide that things should be changed. I’m not a homosexual nor is anyone I’m close to a homosexual, yet I’m all for changing things so that they receive equitable treatment.

Marc

47

My thoughts on the subject:

There’s still racism in the United States. It’s a lot better than it used to be but it’s still a problem.

Some people put a lot of effort into ignoring racism. If there are ten ways to explain something and nine of those ways involve racism, there are people who will insist on choosing the tenth possibility every time.

Sometimes racism works at different levels. You can’t just dismiss something as not being racist by saying it’s not about race, it’s about poverty or unemployment or lack of education or broken homes or criminal records or bad neighbourhoods. Because the next question should then be why is race such a big factor in issues like poverty and unemployment and lack of education and broken homes and criminal records and bad neighbourhoods.

Racism can affect white people. But it mostly doesn’t. It’s like two guys walking into the emergency room - one just had his arm torn off by a bear and the other one has a toothache. The guy with the blood pouring out of his body gets the attention. The guy with the toothache shouldn’t sit there and whine about how he should be getting as much attention as the other guy. He has a problem but the other guy’s problem is more serious.

48

[QUOTE=Sumisu_919]
Where were these average people during Slavery, the Jim Crow era, etc? Busy???
[/QUOTE]

My post was written in the present tense.

49

[QUOTE=MGibson]
A lot of Jewish people came down to the south during the 50s and 60s to help people register to vote and otherwise exercise their civil liberties. Were Jews from states like New York really affected strongly by the racial prejudice faced by black people in Georgia, Alabama, or Mississippi? Nah.

The nice thing about having the ability to communicate is being able to relate to others what certain things are like. Granted, I have no idea how homosexuals feel, but I can hear their experience with discrimination and decide that things should be changed. I’m not a homosexual nor is anyone I’m close to a homosexual, yet I’m all for changing things so that they receive equitable treatment.

Marc
[/QUOTE]

The point here is that they shouldn’t have had to do that and what was up with the whites in the South that were depriving people their right to vote?

50

[QUOTE=xtisme]
For instance I would have to say that a large percentage of American Blacks who’s families have been here since the time of slavery have some white blood in their veins…so, looked at that way its silly for BOTH sides to resent or be prejudiced against the other. Isn’t it?

-XT
[/QUOTE]

Well, it’s even “sillier” for white people to enslave their own children and grandchildren and greatgrandchildren, beating them up for almost another century after “freeing them”, all while singing about the brotherhood of men. It’s actually so much sillier that resenting them for it doesn’t seem silly at all.

I’m not thinking “silly” is a good word to use.

51

Yawn… I am so tired of this. If you want to live you life mired in liberal guilt, go right ahead. But don’t try and legitimize your personal psychological problems by pretending that you’re just so much more aware of society’s ills than the rest of us evil prejudiced white people. You’re not.

Katrina was a hurricane. Let me repeat that. Katrina was a hurricane. It wasn’t an act of war, it wasn’t a govt program, it was freakin bad weather, ok?! And the result of the residents ignoring, for several decades, that their city’s infrastructure was in desperate need of repair, but only if they got hit by a category 4. So they kept gambling until they lost. FEMAs response was as good as it could have been, it was just overwhelmed by the size of the disaster.

Turning it into a race issue was caused by white-hating (i.e. racist), opportunistic, self-promoting black leaders, organizations and celebrities.

52

[QUOTE=Hail Ants]
Turning it into a race issue was caused by white-hating (i.e. racist), opportunistic, self-promoting black leaders, organizations and celebrities.
[/QUOTE]
Sure. The lies told about the ongoing rapes and murders in the Superdome (with lots of subtext about how “those people” are naturally vicious and violent) were all inventions of black politicians. Why, I distinctly recall Nagin flying to the top of the Superdome by helicopter so that he could proclaim, “Those people under my feet can never be civilized!”

(Or, just maybe, you are overreacting to what has actually been said in this thread while you utter negative sound bites to give yourself an air of superiority to someone or other.)

53

[QUOTE=xtisme]
No doubt some are. In addition (to the point I assume you are making here), I know Hispanics who resent people of (native) Indian decent…while having Indian blood in them. And Hispanics who resent and despise ALL whites…while having white blood in their veins. And of course there are Hispanics (like me) who resent and even despise the Spanish…while having Spanish blood in their veins.

-XT
[/QUOTE]

There’s human blood, it isn’t white though plasma is clear and it’s definitely not spanish or indian.

54

[QUOTE=Hail Ants]
And the result of the residents ignoring, for several decades, that their city’s infrastructure was in desperate need of repair, but only if they got hit by a category 4. So they kept gambling until they lost.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, New Orleans residents really should have exercised more control over the Army Corps of Engineers. I know my home town has agents deeply infiltrated into the army’s command structure so that we can control the decisions the corps makes.

55

[QUOTE=monstro]
I’m not thinking “silly” is a good word to use.
[/QUOTE]

How about ‘stupid’? ‘Monstrous’? ‘Asinine’? I don’t know really. It just seems so…pointless…to me.

[QUOTE=Sumisu_919]
There’s human blood, it isn’t white though plasma is clear and it’s definitely not spanish or indian.
[/QUOTE]

Um…yeah. I’m aware of that.

-XT

56

As usual monstro is channeling my thoughts. Get out of my head!

I appreciate Richard Parker mentioning Critical Race Theory, but there have been plenty of contributions - significant ones - by people of all races. You can’t really talk about Critical Race Theory without discussing Richard Delgado’s The Imperial Scholar, or the contributions of researchers like Daniel Solorzano and Jean Stefancic.

The cornerstone of Critical Race Theory is that racism is endemic in American society, and that the narrative accounts of people of color are acts of resistance in a racialized context. CRT also acknowledges that gender, socioeconomic class, and sexual orientation, to name a few aspects of identity, interact with race in myriad ways.

I would suspect that there are a few truths emergent from the OP. Part of Whiteness and White privilege is the suppression and denial of racism, and when I consider most of my White friends who I consider to be critical and allies, they talk about coming to terms with the fact that racism existed, in spite of societal messages that it was all in the 1960s. (Some of these folks have parents involved in the civil rights movement so they grew up with this knowledge.) People of color generally confront race and racism very early in life.

It’s unfortunate, because if White folks were more aware of racism and its impact on life opportunities for people of color, there could be much greater cross-racial unity fighting racism. But for a White person to be able to discuss issues of racism relatively free of personal guilt and without significant denial takes a lot of effort.

At the same time, people of color could perhaps be more understanding of how racism affects Whites as well. A lot of opportunities are lost because some people would rather lash out in anger to Whites instead of working towards a solution together. At the same time, though, there is a tendency, in my experience, for Whites to intellectualize the issue of racism and not acknowledge the painful effects of racism, on the interpersonal and institutional level.

Among many Whites, I would argue that there’s also a desire to suggest that socioeconomic status and class are greater social ills than racism, and a colorblind approach to injustice will rectify issues of inequity. Class and SES certainly are privileging and stigmatizing forces in society, but racism affects poor people of color and the middle class/wealthy. Claude Steele’s research on stereotype threat confirms this among affluent college going students of color.

57

[QUOTE=Sumisu_919]
Are White People in Denial? Tim Wise seems to think so.

From this link:
http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/whatcard.html

I think Tim Wise has a point and that whites in the US are in denial with respect to the effects of racism and when racism is playing a role in how black people are viewed and treated.
[/QUOTE]

When something bad happens to black people, it’s racist. Anyone else, it’s just wrong or unfair. Blacks tend to exaggerate racism, whites tend to deny it. There’s a lot of crying wolf IMO, so I think it’s fair to say white people, or hell, people in general, deny racism.

I get the impression that some black people seem to think it’s ok to be racist, except against themselves. During my brief stint as a substitute teacher, a student seemed to think it was ok to declare “I hate white people” loudly to no one in particular during a bit of study hall time. Since I moved to a more rural, republican town, I’m either seeing or imagining a hell of a lot more racism. Cracker and gringo are acceptable and common, while the precious n-word warrants either a beating or a shaming. I get shit service in fast food joints staffed by a majority of black people, while a darker-skinned customer seems to be served quickly. I’m fairly racially ambiguous, though I’m clearly not black. Maybe it’s a coincidence, maybe the service is just shit. I don’t know, I give any place with poor service only two strikes before I stay away.

Now I’m not saying this is all black people, or even most. I’m sure as hell not saying only black people are racist. Nearly everyone is.

58

I’ll bet that includes RURAL people…There is a rumor that they’re actually a mixed lot…Not all alike as we had first thought. Who would have believed it fifty years ago?

Don’t much think so. Can you come up with a cite? Don’t you remember the words of that great genetic authority – Oscar Hammerstein?

So was is there reason for not getting it together over the last couple of years? Do they need a couple of more years to handle this emergency? What is the Federal government doing now? Have the levies been rebuilt strong enough to withhold any hurricane? Have the homes in the 9th ward been rebuilt and the residents moved back in? What became of all of those mobile homes that didn’t quite make it to the coast?

I know some teenagers that went down to help a month or so ago. They worked with young children. The building they worked out of had walls made of plastic wrap.

59

Katrina showed us there was a lesson to be learned about economic inequality. Poor people were affected disproportionately by the disaster, and we should probably concentrate on making evacuation plans and disaster relief more accessible to the poor.

60

Of course white people aren’t in denial. Michael Bolton’s rendention of “When a Man Loves a Woman” is vastly superior to Percy Sledge’s version.

Marc