Are White People in Denial?

Great Debates
21

From the OP’s link:

I do not know that “denial” would be the applicable verb, but I would say that any white person who answered NO to this question, if not in denial, was pretty clueless.

Did the levees fail because because of racial preferences to protect white neighborhoods? I have seen no evidence of that.

Did the black mayor fail to call the school board to request buses to get black citizens out of danger because he was a black-hating racist? I really doubt that.

Did FEMA respond poorly because the victims were black? The evidence I have seen suggests only that a political appointment replaced a professional in the key position and FEMA was, accordingly gutted. No evidence of racism, (or that the political appointee was even aware of race–or much of anything beyond campaign donations), has turned up (as the white victims of Mississippi who are still struggling with insurance cancellations and a lack of FEMA support can attest).

However, those were not the only events that were reported. There were also greatly exaggerated claims of the breakdown of society. Certainly, there was both looting and violence, but the majority of such claims were exaggerated out of all proportion to the actual events and relief was held up until overwhelming security could be provided. In all those reports, race figured prominently in the descriptions of the events and the pundits and the blogosphere was filled with claims that race was an important aspect of the situation. No outside police departments prevented whites from fleeing the city.
To claim that racial inequality played NO part in the overall situation in New Orleans requires massive denial or massive ignorance.

On the flip side, you have a black mayor, who failed to take the most basic steps to reduce the trauma, getting up and playing the race card at every opportunity. However, his black-on-white racism (probably driven more by a desire for personal power than any actually held beliefs) hardly nullifies the racism that did exacerbate the situation.

22

I think most of the problem is that for white people, racism is an abstract construct, an intellectual chewtoy for the bored and/or drunk. We have long threads where Dopers can’t even agree on what racism is because it’s fun debating anything, no matter how simple it is fundamentally, as an academic exercise. To listen to Dopers, you’d think racism is a matter so deep and complicated that there has to exist a mathetical proof for it–one full of irrational numbers and scary symbols. I know when I see a scary equation, I close my eyes and pretend it’s not all that important, because what’s the likelihood I’ll ever encounter it in my daily life?

Black people, on the other hand, feel racism. We grow up “feeling” it. We don’t have debates about what racism is, but rather on what one does when confronted by it. Even for black people who’ve never had an overt racist encounter it’s a practical matter. You worry about it when you step into a job interview, when you’re talking on the phone with a client, trying to hail a taxi, or moving to a new place. It’s not a scary calculus problem that you can skip over in favor of the “easy” stuff. Racism is the “easy” stuff, because we have not intellectualized it and made it into an abstract concept.

This is my long way of saying, automatically white and black people are going to look at a question dealing with race differently. White people are more likely to overthink the question: Well, it’s clear to me that classism had a bigger role than racism. And what exactly is racism anyway? Racism is about hatred and violence. There was no hatred or violence in the government’s Katrina response, ergo no racism. Black people, IMHO, are more likely to overfeel the question: Well, it’s clear to me that racism was involved here. It was so tragic, the way they had to suffer while whites were blaming them at every turn, calling them thieves and animals, etc. Those people could have been me! Hell yeah, there was racism involved!

White people (as a population) have been in denial a lot longer than black people have, but that isn’t to say black people are always accurate in their assessments on racial relations.

23

I agree with your general point of how there is a black/white divide in discourse over racism because of a difference in personal experience.

But, I do not agree that intellectual discussion of the definition of racism comes from white culture as a defense mechanism. Critical race theory, a significant piece of which is defining race and racism, is a field created and led by black thinkers. W.E.B. DuBois, Mari Matsuda, and Derrick Bell would probably disagree with your generalization that black people don’t have debates about what racism is.

24

Monstro I think a part of the problem is the artificial construction that is liberal guilt, which is also an intellectual problem. The reality is deep down everyone has a sense of ‘us’ and ‘them’. If a white guy ever calls a black guy ‘brother’, there is a note of disdain from the black guy, a sense of ‘I’m not your brother.’ The notion that white people are supposed to not feel ethnocentricity makes them push it down, and pretend that it’s not there. If they were ever to admit that there still is vestigial cultural identity, they would be chastised by everyone, from the people who do not belong to the ‘us’ category as well as some of ‘us’ who feel the same experience, but are now morally superior because they’d never admit it. I have a lot of friends from different cultures, black, jewish, arab, asian etc… and there are always moments where I feel excluded from some sense of ‘us’ that comes from a shared culture. It’s simply unavoidable. For me, I am aware of it, but I am also aware of it when I go amongst the cornflower blue wearing WASPy Connecticut set. Ethnic/cultural relations are something that we fear discussing openly, so we prefer to deny that they are there. I find myself often irrationally terrified of committing some faux pas that will have me labelled a racist.

That being said. I agree that such a response as happened with Katrina would never have happened in San Francisco.

25

Of course, I didn’t mean to imply that black people have never intellectualized the subject. Black Dopers aren’t exactly mute when it comes to debates on race relations on the board.

26

I took your implication to be that this intellectualization was a way for whites to avoid the issue. That is what I was challenging, since black people not only participate in this, but spearheaded the movement.

27

Perhaps you meant to say that white people have the luxury of only debating racism without the burden of experiencing it. I’d say the closest I’ve come to experiencing racism is when I’ve traveled in Asia, particularly in Japan. But even then it was more of a curiosity because it didn’t impact my life in any real way, and I knew I was getting back on a plane in a week or two and heading back home. Or going to an ethnic restaurant where they seat you over in corner and you keep wondering if you’d get a better seat if you didn’t stand out so much. But again, that’s something I generally laugh about-- no one is doubting my ability to do a job or suspecting that I’m going to steal something.

28

How long have you been avoiding reading threads by Askia? :stuck_out_tongue:

29

One problem with polls is that, depending on how the question is framed, you might get difference answers. If you asked me whether the Katrina tragedy was evidence of racism I would probably say no because I’d be thinking mainly of the failure of the government on a local, state, and national level which, for the most part, didn’t seem to me to have anything to do with race. If you asked me the same question about how the media reported the situation in New Orleans during and after Katrina you’d get an enthusiastic yes from me.

Marc

30

Important question: How do you distinguish between being “in denial” and just being honestly ignorant a problem?

31

I’m 56 and consider myself to be liberal. I grew up watching scenes of oppression played out on TV, not just in Montgomery and Selma, but in Detroit and Los Angles as well. I personally saw black people suffer from bigotry and racism in Denver and Colordo Springs and Pueblo, and it revolted me. I grew up in rural Colorado where Mexicans were treated with condesencion (fuck the spelling, I’m trying to make a point here) at best and outright contempt at worst. All of it was repulsive and sickening.

When I was in the Army in the mid-1970s and actually had the chance to interact and work with black and Puerto Rican soldiers, I was told in no uncertain terms that, being white, I was suspect and considered an “enemy.” Oh, sure, there were a couple of black GIs who vowed to help my wife and son to safety if anything happened to me (black soldiers were more caring about the families of their peers than anyone else, in my experience) but for the most part, the thirst for Black Power meant that if they ever got a chance to oppress Whitey, they’d do it with relish.

I ignored all of that when I returned to civilian life and went to college and began my career in journalism. On the rare occasions when I had regular contact with blacks, I became overly self-conscious and even began changing the way I had talked all my life. “Attaboy!” was a good thing when I was growing up, but the first time I said it to a black colleage, I got a glare of resentment. I changed it to “Waytago!” In fact, I became acutely aware that, in the snow-white farm town I grew up in, “boy” was used frequently in a variety of expressions. I started to resent the fact that I had to filter my speech, my writing, even my thoughts – not because I ever meant to express any bigotry or racism, but because I didn’t want to even accidentally convey a hint of an appearance of racism.

Finally, a few years ago, I was promoted to manage a team of technical support agents in a call center. One of my top agents was a black man (let’s call him Gary, since that was his name.) We worked for a multi-national corporation and supported one of the giants of the digital imaging industry. Gary didn’t just help our customers, he helped the other agents and he helped me understand digital imaging. One day he came to my office to ask for time off (which he had more than earned) and opened the discussion with, “Hey, man, he’p a brothah out!” I granted the time off, of course, and as he was leaving I joked, “Y’know, Gary, I have three younger brothers and they’re all a pain in the ass. I don’t need another brother.” He laughed, then grabbed my arm and put it up next to his. “I dunno about you, but we bofe look da’ same color t’me!” he said. Then he told me, “You know, you are a good man. I’m a good man. We do good stuff together, you and me. Anybody ever tell you there’s something wrong with you just because you’re white, you tell them to go fuck themselves.”

Now, I do not deny that racism is embedded in a large number of American minds. But it is not in mine. I have been racially insulted by blacks and Hispanics (Mexican, Puerto Rican and U.S. citizens alike) so I know that racism is alive. I know personally men who have vowed that Barak Obama will never live to take the oath of office if he is elected. A man I have known and loved for 35 years – the son of immigrants who suffered awful bigotry when they came from Italy – still insists that the only thing wrong with our corner of the world is the number of Mes’kins in it. I know well the ignorance that feeds the fear that feeds the hatred.

I dislike “affirmative action” because I believe lowering expectations for one ethnic group denigrates us. I hate that America has betrayed the promise of the Great Society, but at the same time I blame Lyndon Johnson as much as anyone. I hate the fact that my beloved First Amendment protects the purveryors of racism as it protects the guardians of truth. I can rail and blame and condemn all day and it won’t change a thing. All I can do is remember Gary and be a good man. All I can ask is that others do the same.

[climbs down off soapbox, puts it away and walks out of the room.]

32

Yeah, but those posts aren’t part of a debate-- they’re instructional. :slight_smile:

33

I don’t know any white people who would deny that there are still racial problems and inequities and tensions.* I also think that the person making an allegation of racism must meet the same burden of proof as a person making any other allegation. I think racism played some role in Katrina but I think it was minor role and as much as I detest George Bush and would love to pin the blame on him I think that Nagin and decades of New Orleans/Louisiana politicians who failed to prepare for the inevitable disaster are as more to blame. (If the Great Quake ever hits Charleston it’s going to be the same song, different choir- like New Orleans they’ve had a century to prepare and haven’t done nearly enough- I’m just using Charleston as an example, there are several of equal merit.)
*In fairness, I should point out that I missed the last couple of WHITE AMERICANS meetings. (One I had a scheduling conflict, and for ethical reasons I boycotted the one where Donnie & Marie Osmond were inducted into the WHITE MUSIC HALL OF FAME.)

34

Well, I do think that white people often resort to semantic quibbling in order to avoid calling a duck a duck and possibly implicating themselves as racist. It really hit me during that Michael Richards fall-out. When a man screaming “HE’S A NIGGER! HE’S A NIGGER!” can’t safely be called a racist because people are holding your head to the one definition of “racist” in Oxford Dictionary that doesn’t apply to him, then you can’t help but wonder why people think the way they do.

Academics intellectualize and navel gaze. That’s what they do for a living. But I’m not talking about academic discourse. I’m talking about how everyday people respond to the whole concept of racism.

35

Good one, Sunrazor.

As a white person I try very hard to recognize that I am privileged to a lifestyle black people will not have in my lifetime. I live in the south (Mississippi) and I am very aware of racism. It is very real here. I think it exists in the north also, but here it’s a lot more “in your face.” I hear the “n-word” frequently; at the grocery store, in line at McDonald’s, even among extended family. I’m always slightly amazed when people say racism is over, it seems completely obvious to me. Can the situation in New Orleans be partly (or even mainly) attributed to racism? Are you kidding? Yes! You want to know about racism in Louisiana? Go look up some stories about the Jena Six. Read them. Then come explain about how racism is over.

Racism in this country is so deep, and such a fundamental part of everything, that white people don’t see it. Partly, I think, that’s because they’ve never experienced it, like monstro was saying. But I do believe its willful ignorance too. Blaming it all on liberal guilt is just so convenient. If it’s all in their heads, hey, I’m in the clear! But that doesn’t make it true.

White people who really think that racism is a thing of the past, or that it’s “mostly over” should spend awhile really researching it. Read the blogs of black people who talk about these issues. Listen, and really try to understand, when you hear people like Jesse Jackson talk on tv. Come at it from a non-defensive position, realize that maybe there is something about this that you don’t know. Try to see that a lifetime of oppression is something you can never understand. Change your paradigm a little.

36

I don’t think it is denial so much as it is apathy. As soon as racism is mentioned in some news broadcast or whatnot I think a large segment of society just stops listening.

37

When the word denial and Katrina are used in the same sentence the first thing that comes to mind is the reelection of Mayor Nagin.

To Answer the 2nd question, no. While New Orleans has a history steeped in African lineage it’s recent status is more consistent with blight and social poverty. If the Mayor sees it as a chocolate city I see it as an urban rat-hole. If you want to judge the treatment based on race then any surrounding community of white folk (who suffered) would have to be tallied before making any presumptions.

Bigiotry in general? Of course it exists. It always will. The difference between 1901, 1951 and 2001 are substantially different and I expect the trend to continue in the positive.

38

A question that I’ve wanted to ask is whether you believe that the everyday white guy who disagrees with you on a complex issue with racial implications, say something like affirmative action, actually wants to see the day where there is true equality between the races. Where there is no income or educational disparity. Where taxis pick up the first guy they see, and test scores are identical between the races. Do you believe that ultimately we all (or 90% of us) want to get to the same place, or do you believe that the majority of white people want to maintain the status quo?

Because I think that’s what gets lost in these discussions. Personally, I think the vast majority of us want to get to that place, we just disagree on how we’re going to do it.

39

Maybe they are just weary of hearing it over and over again? Sort of the cry wolf syndrome. After a while, being constantly bombarded with cries of wolf (especially the younger generation), they become numb…and forget that there really IS a wolf out there, even if its in the deep woods now. Racism in the US is certainly still out there…its just below the surface by and large. And of course it goes both ways…blacks are as racist as whites, and hispanics (IMHO) are a match for both groups. Asians as well…arguably more so (in my anecdotal experience).

I find it hard to believe that anyone REALLY thinks that there is NO racism in the US…or in the world for that matter…despite what that poll says. But I also think that at some point people start to resent the constant stream of accusations and finger pointing. I know that a lot of hispanics (many in my own family) sometimes resent how blacks constantly pull the race card…and forget that they aren’t the ONLY folks in this country that a problem with racism. Or when they (or hispanics, or asians) don’t really take a hard look around and see that, while things aren’t perfect they are a HELL of a lot better than they were when I was a kid…and infinitely better than when MY folks immigrated to this country as kids.

To me the change has been pretty damn profound…and I’m only in my upper-40’s. Talking to MY parents who are in their late 70’s, while comparing that to my own kids experiences…its almost surreal.

White people imitate black and hispanic culture these days(!!). Black, hispanic and asian actors STAR in movies (remember the days when this wasn’t true? I do)…and get top billing as major actors (instead of whites PLAYING at being Asian or Hispanic…or Blacks getting second billing or not in the movie at all). Black athletes are lionized as role models…not just for other blacks but for everyone. Look at Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. Mixed couples like my own marriage are, if not the norm, at least accepted…and even ignored.

Certainly we have a LONG ass way to go (especially with gay rights and acceptance by the general population, but also with what I think is a rising resentment/prejudice of those ‘mezzicans’ as another poster put it…and as always the low grade or even high grade residual prejudice of blacks, especially young black males). But we’ve COME a long way in a short time. IMHO, FWIW and all that jazz…

-XT

40

Because I think that’s what gets lost in these discussions. Personally, I think the vast majority of us want to get to that place, we just disagree on how we’re going to do it.
[/QUOTE]

Who would want to change a system that’s working for them? If issues of race don’t effect you and it’s not personal to you, you’re not really likely to thing about changing things that don’t, in your reality require changing. It’s like always having money, the notion of not having it tends to be abstract and consequently you have no real idea of what it’s like to be without it.