How long is the waiting list to adopt children with severe birth defects? How about for crack babies? How many have you personally adopted?
Yeah, Christians like this are like crooked car mechanics who will find $500 worth of repairs that your car needs even if you bring it in to inflate the tires.
Preventing abortion = rape is the same logical fallacy as abortion=murder. They can both be bad without being the same.
It’s not an argument that begs your sympathy, or your assessment of character, or your forebearance of anyone’s decisions. That’s kinda the beauty of it. 
Pretty much.
[/QUOTE]
I see. The movie is basically equating Jews to fetuses who have no brainwaves. I’ll be charitable and assume you have never talked to a Jewish person, but I can tell you right now that this kind of stuff is deeply offensive. It is not enough that Christians have been oppressing and killing Jews for most of 2,000 years, but now they have to pull this shit also.
Which shows you need to build up your skepticism muscles. Are you sure that everyone in that movie isn’t either an actor or some person from a church made up as a skinhead to say his lines? Since this thread has been Godwinized from the start, I can say that Both Hitler and Ray Comfort use propaganda.
Where personhood begins is an individual decision. Science can tell you facts about the capabilities of a fetus at certain stages of development, but can’t tell you where the line is. Is a newly fertilized ovum that isn’t even implanted yet (and which looks nothing like a person) a person? How many cells is the dividing line? Should every miscarriage be investigated? If women are not allowed to abort a fetus in the first trimester, should they be forced to change their habits to reduce harm to this person? You can get in real trouble giving a baby alcohol - should a pregnant woman be fined for drinking? Smoking?
You say the movie is designed to make one think, but have you thought about these things? Do you understand the many arguments against the truth of Christianity?
I’m all for reducing the abortion rate, since it is inefficient to correct by surgery something which can usually be prevented with the proper precautions. Do you favor real birth control education in our schools, and laws to make all sorts of birth control easily available even without parental consent? (Lots of kids are going to do it but not want to admit to it until they screw up and the fact becomes obvious.) If you say no, or obfuscate, you are more anti-sex and likely anti-choice than anti-abortion.
Just for the record, last time I checked Orthodox Jewish thought on abortion was-
It’s wrong as it violates the commandment to “be fruitful and multiply”
It is NOT murder. This is based on the fine given for attacking a pregnant woman and causing her to miscarry.
In addition, Jewish belief is that a baby has no soul until it crowns during delivery. During pregnancy, the body is soulless and prone to invasion by demons. I am not kidding, it’s an old Jewish belief that “pursuers” may possess a fetus in utero and attempt to harm the mother.
Back To The OP
You’ve been fed many lies, Lockmat.
There was a pretty funny part of the video.
It was at the beginning where it had an FBI warning about unauthorized copying.
I’m pretty sure they don’t have much to worry about.
From my experience most pro-choice people are also anti-abortion. Is there anyone who is actually pro-abortion?
Of course, that’s the whole point.
We all fall short and need the power of Jeezus to save us!!
Bleh.
I’m pro-abortion, in a way. I certainly think it should be used by certain people, although I would never advocate for anything that forced abortions. But, I do think they are the best choice at times, I have advised people I know to get them, and I think they can be a good thing on the whole. I do not find them to be a tragedy, as many do. Many people say that is pro-abortion. I don’t exactly see it that way, but I’m ok with being called that.
How is that the beauty of it? It means it has nothing backing it up at all. Morality is about sympathy for other people and assessment of whether what someone did is right or wrong.
And, anyways, you admitted that you don’t believe in it absolutely since you said that they can force you to try to have the baby to get it out. That means they’ve just taken control of your body.
Then again, every single law on the books is about controlling my body. My body can’t be in a car driving above the speed limit. My hands can’t fire a gun at another person. I can’t stick my body inside of yours.
I do not have 100% control over what I do with my body. If you want to argue for the right to have an abortion, you need much more than some argument about bodily sovereignty.
There’s a reason pro-choice proponents never claim that the being inside is a person. It takes both bodily sovereignty and that declaration to make abortion okay. Heck, you can do it without the bodily sovereignty.
And since I’m sure to be blasted as being pro-life, I’ll point out that I 100% agree with Cecil on the matter, and thus am neither pro-choice nor pro-life, or perhaps some hodgepodge of both. Brainwave function is the low end and viability is the upper end of when a fetus becomes a person.
Clicked link, saw Ray Comfort, realized it was garbage, closed link.
Ray Comfort’s messages are not designed to get people to “think”. They are designed to be offensive. He has a series of vids where he goes up to people and ask them if they lied, thought dirty thoughts, etc and then he calls them liars and adulterers. This is not the makings of deep thought, it’s the makings of inflammatory rhetoric.
This is the man who attempted to argue that the banana was evidence of God because of how it was perfectly designed - completely unaware that the banana he was holding was basically created by humans through artificial selection.
I’ve listened to him debate people twice, he’s a horrible apologist. I would not recommend him to anyone who wants to bolster their faith through reason (there are better theologians/philosophers out there for that).
Actually, nobody who uses a condom can get pregnant & have an abortion. If a woman’s partner uses a condom, her chance of getting pregnant is significantly reduced.
While I hold that continuing the pregnancy is her decision, the man’s actions do affect that decision. Does he greet the news with joy & promise of 18 years of loving support? Or does he bug out?
Oh, a fetus is not a baby. And the God concept hasn’t been proven; it works for some people, but it’s possible to have a good life because you prefer to live by your own set of morals–not because you fear burning in Hell.
(I trust the OP is a strong pacifist & against the death penalty.)
No, there’s no comparison. Comparing abortion to murder is flat out false, it’s no more murder than stomping on a cockroach is murder and for most of the same reasons. Forbidding abortion and rape on the other hand are very similar; they are both examples of someone else deciding they can do as they like with a woman’s body regardless of her opinion.
You are trying to convince people killing babies is bad when people who support abortion don’t believe they are babies, how do you think that is going to work?
You think you’d get a ticket if you were a passenger of the speeding car? You can’t cause a car to speed. It isn’t possible yet, but if you could drive by remote control and speed, you might get a ticket being nowhere near the car.
You won’t be arrested for your hands doing exactly the same thing - at a target. And sticking your body inside someone elses is physically impossible - your whole body, anyway.
When a fetus becomes a person is a matter of personal choice. If woman X thinks a fetus becomes a person upon fertilization, no one is going to force her to act against that belief. It is only a woman who thinks a fetus becomes a person much later who is told she can’t act accordingly. That is what choice is all about.
That’s the problem with labels. I could have said “pro-life” but some pro-choice people object to that (because they’re not “anti-life”). So I went with what I thought was the preferred neutral designation of “anti-abortion.”
Thing is, suppose we bite that bullet and agree that human life begins at conception. Now what?
Does that make abortion murder? I guess it does. So what do we do with people who help women have abortions, health care providers who perform abortions, and women who have abortions?
Are we seriously going to treat them exactly like we’d treat someone who participated in the murder of a person?
In many countries today, abortion is illegal. And in those countries, abortions are performed all the time.
Making abortion illegal is a very poor way stopping abortion. Yeah, yeah, if we save even one baby isn’t it worth it? Except I don’t see your type of Christians supporting universal health care on the grounds that if it saved even one life it would be worth it.
There’s a lot of talk about saving lives, but other than trying to make abortion illegal and persuading women not to have abortions you don’t exactly put in a lot of effort, you know?
The real solution to abortion is improved access to birth control, sensible sex education, and access to health care Did you know that the abortion rate in Europe is a fraction of the abortion rate in America? Why do you think that might be?
If your goal is truly to protect unborn human life then making abortion illegal and figuring you’ve done enough is kind of pathetic. You can make abortion illegal, but that’s not going to stop abortion. And the kinds of steps you’d need to truly stop abortion would require totalitarian government. And five minutes after a totalitarian government is installed, the number one goal of the government is self-perpetuation, not stopping abortion or protecting human life.
Taking your concern for human life at face value, I wish you’d sit yourself down and think about what, exactly, the best way to accomplish your goals might be. Every single abortion is caused by human suffering of one kind or another. Work to eliminate the causes of those sufferings and you find that the reasons for abortions melt away. And that’s when you will have stopped abortion.
If I were a woman and a rape victim, I suspect I would be highly offended at the comparison. Especially since many women are anti-abortion but few are pro-rape.
But I’m neither a woman nor a rape victim so I’ll drop it.
And who’s going to care for that baby after she’s born? Who’s going to be there to change her diaper, help her learn to walk, take her to kindergarten, help her get ready for her first date, send her to college, etc., etc., etc.? If you play a part in preventing her mother from aborting her, does your responsibility disappear when she’s born?
And who’s going to help her with her own reproductive choices? Or will you just show her the video?