He specifically mentioned the American Right, which has been nearly completely consumed by Trumpism and other forms of anti-intellectualism. There’s a reason why American right-wing media is full of conspiracy theories and flat out lies. That’s what the party is about now. It’s why they are literally passing laws to stop schools from teaching about subjects like racism and homosexuality. It’s why they push the anti-mask/anti-vax conspiracies.
Sure, you can argue about what strategies are useful to fight this. But the fact is that the American Right is a profoundly intellectually bankrupt ideology being promoted by con men and idiots, not something based on actual facts. So it is entirely in keeping with our desire to fight ignorance to fight against these guys.
Haven’t you noticed how all of the people who promote that stuff have been driven off the board?
The weirdest thing about FB is that people get upset when you respond to their insane postings (especially if you use things like facts and mentions of reality). Despite my explaining that yes, I have a right to comment on anything that appears on my page, & if they don’t want my comments, they should unfriend me, I’ve had several people get really angry with me for commenting (disagreeably) on their “Trump is the second coming & Covid is fake” idiocy. I am genuinely confused by this since I thought the whole point of social media was to interact with others.
Speaking of which: I don’t really do what’s described in the OP. I don’t see much point in countertrolling on their home turf. And I’m wary of coming up with fake conspiracy theories due to unintended consequences (whether they get believed or discovered).
But I do see the point in countering the lies, and I do it when I encounter them. I see the point in educating when I see a lack of knowledge. And I see the point of pointing out the trolls so that others know who they’re dealing with.
And while it’s nothing major since I take precautions, I have taken my share of abuse for it.
I lived through a period where left-leaning terrorists were indeed a specific threat to me and my family. I have friends and colleagues who were injured by them.
Has the pendulum swing towards right-wing attacks? yes. (and certainly if you consider Islamic terrorism to be essentially fascistic in nature) So I understand if that is your current area of concern but my own belief is that it is a mistake to concentrate purely on that.
In my experience this doesn’t work. Admittedly, I’m not especially delicate, but I have frequent one-on-one interactions with several wingnuts with whom I have lots of common ground & it’s surreal to watch/listen to them dodge & deny anything that questions their beliefs. The minute the conversation strays from common ground into any of their sensitive areas (race, immigration, government, patriotism, etc), they (almost visibly) discount everything I say. They can cite every minor instance of Biden failing, no matter how fictional, but claim “I didn’t know about that” when Trump’s cruelty, incompetence, or lying are mentioned. (“I didn’t know about that” is Trumperspeak for “fake news”). People who were once well-informed, questioning individuals are now walking cult zombies and I don’t believe they’re coming back.
Oh, I know. That’s why I said ‘far from guaranteed’.
I’d love to try to fight ignorance, but is there any way to do it that’s not essentially Sisyphean, I wonder? I’ll be keeping eye on this thread for ideas. As I’ve mentioned before on these boards, my older son (19 now) has many extreme right-wing beliefs, and I’ve had no luck moderating his views over the years since he became that way.
Social media works exactly as you described it, because it is another instrumentality of tribalism, of staking out what is “us” vs. “them.” I am surprised to find someone who is at all confused by this.
I do not argue with packs of barking dogs or with tRumpists. Both are full of enthusiasm for their concerns, but neither respond well to logic. Why bother?
Why? Most Facebook usage is civil interaction with people with whom you share some commonality. Shared interest, not tribalism, as there is no conflict or exclusion between those joining the local history group and those in the homebrewed beer group. But then I have no idea what “instrumentality of tribalism” means, so I’m clearly too superficial to grasp the deep, meaningful side of Facebook, which I consider a clever app for light communcation.
Sure, but what makes the “Dope State” predominantly an anti-right-wing mission is that currently it’s the right wing (and not only in the US) that has made conspiracy theories, anti-science counterfactualism, and other forms of weaponized ignorance a cornerstone of its movement.
Every faction admittedly has its wacko extremist fringe full of looniness and lies. But the remarkable thing about the contemporary right wing is that the wacko extremist fringe are the ones driving the train.
I suspect highly skilled psychiatric treatment or a thunderbolt is required
Every right-winger I know shares a good start in life followed by a slide into mediocrity. Not a bad life, necessarily, and they’re not even terribly unhappy, they just didn’t achieve the big bucks, CEO job, recognition, or whatever their dream was. This isn’t just old people – it’s also the 22yo who failed at college, ending his dream of teaching. They won’t admit it’s because of their life choices, random chance, or simply because everyone can’t be at the top. But if it’s not their fault, it must be someone else’s fault. Sounds exactly like Trump, doesn’t it? Which is one reason they love him so much – he made it legitimate to blame ‘others’ for your failures.
Congresswoman Liz Cheney is very controversial because she is a rare anti-Trump Republican. She is running a FaceBook ad. Most of the comments seem to come from Trumpists. A typical comment is " She hasn’t done anything for Wyoming! Name just one thing." To which I will reply with an accomplishment listed on her website, continuing with “…and about 50 other things. Look at her website. Being willfully ignorant is not the way to go through life.” There is almost never any response from them. they don’t engage. So I am beginning to think that most of of the commenters are bots.
I’ve been sort of a hermit since COVID when it comes to social gatherings. Our new neighbors don’t live in the house they bought; I don’t even know their names or what they do for a living. Like I’d want to bond with neighbors over opposing political views anyways.
I still interact with people on the American right, for example when they walk in to the doctor’s office I work at. Or if we’re waiting in line for the register. But I don’t talk politics with them, and if they talk politics to me, I certainly don’t throw “truth bombs” at them. Like my version of the truth will hold more authority than theirs… rhetoric 101. The only person that can convince anyone of anything is themself. Confront a person on a subject they are passionate about and, in most situations, you will only come across as holier-than-thou and make them mad. If genuinely interested in their opinion I ask questions. “Where did you read that?” “Okay, I’ll check it out.” If they wanted your opinion they would ask for it. The preferred method of debate found here is totally inappropriate for most situations, aside from academia, courts of law, public debates (town hall, school board, legislative), etc: specifically, where people expect (or should expect) to have their facts called into question and their core political positions debated at length.
In my opinion, most of social media is not that place. Most of social interaction is not that place. Very rarely are people comfortable having their principles criticized by strangers. Posts are often made not to invite debate but for vindication. I suggest that your post creating this very thread was made for that reason.
You won’t find it from me. No disrespect intended, but if you go out of your way to make “Rightys” mad, if you are getting a kick out of that, you are a troll. It doesn’t matter if you are sincere or factually correct. The so-called Dope State, as you have presented it, is contemptable. If someone came here with that attitude I would be likely to report them.
I prefer to use my time more effectively. I “brainwash” their children. Gotta get to them before they’ve lost or been stripped of their empathy. Ask deep questions. Make them question what they’ve been taught. By everybody, including myself. Pisses off parents no end, but since the class is called “Debate,” there isn’t a lot they can do about it.
It is fine to have such a defined mission for a group that self-identify with that mission. To label it with the name of The Straight Dope seems to attach a political affiliation where none exists.
If the mission is to simply provoke conflict with people you disagree with, to fight them, knock yourself out. You’ll find no shortage of different opinions out there and if your reflex response is to see them as the enemy then conflict is indeed what will happen.
That’s very unlikely to change anyone’s opinion though and will most likely just entrench it. So if fighting ignorance is a net good for the world then I can’t see confrontation working where honest and open engagement and debate has failed.
The greatest results I’ve seen is where the ignorant person is provided with the alternative position in a non-confrontational way and allowed to explore the issue in a non-judgemental way and is supported in that exploration.
e.g. a racist is highly unlikely to be moved out of their racism by confrontation but by living and working alongside people of ethnicities who they come to see as just like them, who they experience, for themselves, as decent human beings, they just might change their mind.