Mangetout, Sorry for the hi-jack. Be really sure before you open up your “God events”, to the scrutiny of strangers, just to somehow strengthen your position or even to give them insight. I did this on another thread not long ago, not because I wanted to, but felt like it was unfair to be counting that as part of my belief system and keeping it a big secret. I agonized over it a lot before I finally did it. It was really hard on me, really hard. People weren’t as bad as I thought they’d be. Generally they thought I was either hallucinating, fantasizing, dreaming or mistaken in some way, which I admit I might think, in their position. It, of course, served no purpose. Your truth can never be someone else’s. Mine can’t be yours. I have absolutely no doubt about what happened to me, but it’s value is limited to only me. I am normally a pretty logical person and realized after the fact that I was somewhat embarrassed by the “event”. Not one of my finer moments of self-realization. Anyway, just be sure it’s what you want to do.
Badchad, Sorry for butting in. I realize it’s not any of my business and I’ll go away quietly now.
ou’re right, IWLN in that I am fairly certain that I could not verbally do justice to the experiences and I’m reasonably certain that some of them would just make me out to be a person who suffers delusional episodes. There really isn’t anything to be gained by my elaborating (except perhaps that my reluctance to do so will be labelled as weaseling).
I totally understand. I’m not even saying you shouldn’t. Hey, you’re already delusional for believing in God anyway.
Just make your choice for the right reasons. Since I’ve already totally butted in, I have one more thing. I was thinking about those percentages on how certain you were that Jesus is the creator/saviour of the universe. It might help you to stop focusing on the literal version of Jesus and think of him as the messenger and what the actual message was. God is not a Christian (that’s a man-made religion, faulty at best) and I pretty much doubt that he is as exclusionary as the religion has turned out to be. Okay, this time I’m really leaving.
I have to confess that I can’t even fully make sense of the idea of percentages of certainty when it comes down to belief; sure, I can see where, for example, the efficacy of a medicine might be expressed in a percentage chance of a cure, but I can’t seem to make the same thing work for beliefs - even if were able to do it, what would it mean? How would the 99% certainty of one person qualitatively differ from the 43% certainty of another?
Isn’t it the case that, for the most part, peoples’ beliefs consist of more items or less items than other people, rather than a standard set of items held at various strengths?
I would have to agree. The casual Christian, who was programmed, whoops taught from birth, hasn’t examined anything, but would probably give a high percentage because he wants to believe these things. He would get a higher percentage on creation, Noah’s ark:), etc, but it would be from lack of thought, not critical examination. Most of it is simply details, many man-made. There are only a couple of actual deal breakers and the rest aren’t nearly as important as they’re made out to be. If your beliefs don’t hold up under critical examination, it’s usually because they weren’t really yours to start with.
Mangetout:
You could at least give it a try, couldn’t you?
If Jesus were here right now he would probably ask “what part of “don’t hide it under a bushel” are you failing to understand?” Really, what’s the worst you have to lose, a little pride? What’s the most you could gain, maybe save someone’s soul with your testimony? I doubt it would be mine but there must be some marginal agnostics out there.
Well yeah. How could it not be? You claim to be a Christian and practice at least some Christian morals taught by Jesus in the bible. When questioned about the bible you fall back on your personal experiences with the divine, when asked about these experiences mums the word. What else am I to think?
I think this “personal experience with god” stuff is held on to (probably subconsciously) only as a last resort when everything else has been thoroughly discredited.
Again, it’s easy. You state a belief and give a percentage of how sure you are. For example; Will the Yankees win the World Series next year. I say no. How sure am I? 70%.
It would only mean how much certainty you put in a particular belief. I’m just trying to quantify your earlier subjective statements.
Clearly the 99% guy is making the statement that he is more sure about something than the 43% guy. It’s one of those “there is no wrong answer” types of questions.
That could be in general but I’m asking you specifically. Fundamentalist Christians generally state that they are 100% sure that the bible is inerrant and that Jesus is lord and he cares about them. Are you saying her you don’t believe in the inerrant bible but have a 100% belief that Jesus is lord and/or he or god cares about you? That you have the same intensity of belief but just believe in less things?
**I could, but as I said, I don’t see the point, or how it relates to the question in hand - I’ve tried it in the past and it proves nothing - why don’t we just accept for the sake of this debate that I have no objective evidence of any kind and that the subjective evidence I have experienced can easily be explained by a competent psychologist.
**I think you’re misapplying the words of Jesus again - as far as I can tell, his statement about not hiding your light under a bushel didn’t seem to be very much about being compelled to explain yourself when you know that no explanation you could offer would be acceptable.
**As I’ve said, I have a lot of trouble grasping this because, as a general rule, it seems to be a case of a set of [a variable number of items] of which [I am sure], rather than a [set of items] of which I am [sure to a variable extent], but even this isn’t particularly helpful, because I don’t know if my certainty draws near to the limit of theoretical complete certainty, because I don’t know that limit.
I realise you probably think I’m being obtuse here, but I really don’t have an answer for you on the percentage of certainty thing - it is like(similar, but not quite the same as) being asked “Exactly ow many things do you know and exactly how many things have you yet to learn?” - could you answer a question like that one?
I don’t know. What I do know is that I don’t seem to have as pressing a need for absolute certainty as the folks at either extreme of belief/non-belief and that I find this to be an honest approach in a universe where certainty is not always available.
badchad
Well since I obviously didn’t go quietly away, can I ask you to clarify a few things? When you talk about percentages of certainty as in the one below:
You’re asking a question that really could have multiple answers(percentages), which to me anyway would be confusing. Saviour of the universe and creator of the universe are actually two different beliefs. Then there’s the confusion or difference of opinion on whether or not Jesus is God. Also if someone says 40% and you wonder where the line is from Christian to Agnostic; you are drawing from only part of what he believes, what seems like a complete conclusion? My beliefs are very strong and I don’t think I could answer these questions, the way you’ve posed them. It seems like you would have to just ask how much (percentage) of your belief is made up of each detail, including faith, “visitations”, belief in God, specific Bible events as in the Messiah, or at least overall belief in the Bible etc. All of those degrees of belief or percentages would add up to an amount that reflected how sure they were overall. The only really relevant point on this thread would be what percentage of a person’s beliefs do they get strictly from the Bible.
Not very many atheists think to pull the “what would Jesus do or say” card when they’re trying to get information. I did enjoy the irony of that. You serve a good purpose. You make us think.
Mangetout:
But I do and that is why I asked. You asked me some questions that I didn’t think were entirely relevant but I still answered them.
That still leaves me curious as to whether your experience was like a real life apparition contacting you (which we could debate) or if it was just a humdrum coincidence/majestic mountain top/dream kind of experience which we all have and does not require god to be there or a delusion.
quote:
If Jesus were here right now he would probably ask “what part of “don’t hide it under a bushel” are you failing to understand?”
Why not play it on the safe side. Besides, while were probably both at least marginally confident that I’m not going to be swayed, that does not mean another onlooker won’t. This thread is getting a fair amount of views.
quote:
Again, it’s easy. You state a belief and give a percentage of how sure you are. For example; Will the Yankees win the World Series next year. I say no. How sure am I? 70%.
…
It would only mean how much certainty you put in a particular belief. I’m just trying to quantify your earlier subjective statements.
…
Clearly the 99% guy is making the statement that he is more sure about something than the 43% guy. It’s one of those “there is no wrong answer” types of questions.
Well that sounds like your pretty certain (80%, 99.9%, 99.9999%) about at least some things? Just pick a number and list them things. Are they that Christ is god, that he or god created the universe, is it that he loves you, that he is both all powerful and/or all good, is it that heaven awaits you, is it that the 2 greatest commandments he taught are really the will of god?
That’s both fine and inconsequential. It’s according to your subjective weighting of the evidence based on your experience. Just take a guess, nothing says you can’t change your mind later.
JUST GUESS
[/quote]
it is like(similar, but not quite the same as) being asked “Exactly ow many things do you know and exactly how many things have you yet to learn?” - could you answer a question like that one?
[/quote]
I think that’s different as it depends to a large degree on how you define “things.” Is driving a car a thing or is it a lot of things? Still I can make a relative guess. Based on my age and education I’d guess around 30%, plus or minus 10% percent with my estimate of certainty of being in that range around 20%. How’s that?
quote:
That could be in general but I’m asking you specifically. Fundamentalist Christians generally state that they are 100% sure that the bible is inerrant and that Jesus is lord and he cares about them. Are you saying her you don’t believe in the inerrant bible but have a 100% belief that Jesus is lord and/or he or god cares about you? That you have the same intensity of belief but just believe in less things?
Yet from what I quoted you above it does sound as though this is not true and you do hold to some certainties or really near certainties. Here again:
I really wish you would just answer cause this is turning into one of them boring discussions about abstract stuff and I’m really just trying to cut to the nitty gritty with my questions.
IWLN
Sure.
quote:
How certain are you about Jesus being the creator/savior of the universe? Are you 100% sure, 50%, 20%, 10% or less. At what percentage does one stop being a Christian and start being an agnostic? How critically did you examine the evidence regarding Jesus being lord and savior?
That’s a reasonable point. I didn’t mean to say these things had to be taken all or nothing. Mangetout is free to parse them out however he chooses. I’ll just ask whether he is using reason to do so or faith. My questions aren’t directed at you as I haven’t seen you make statements implying that your beliefs are based on more reasonable assertions than say fundamentalists. You may have but I’m not that familiar with your personal theology. Also I work pretty long hours and as such have to pick my arguments a little to avoid internet debate encompassing all my free time.
[/quote]
Also if someone says 40% and you wonder where the line is from Christian to Agnostic; you are drawing from only part of what he believes, what seems like a complete conclusion?
[/quote]
Depending on which question he replies 40% I might personally label that as agnostic. Especially considering the emphasis Jesus (not me) reportedly puts on belief.
That is an approach Mangetout is free to take.
I think that’s part of the point but not all of it, and it’s my point so there.
Thanks, and that is one of my petty pleasures.
And for that “loving” Jesus says I deserve to be cast into a furnace of fire for eternal torment.:dubious:
I know and that’s fine. I’m content to let Mangetout butt his head against this particular brick wall. I defended my beliefs in a 10 page thread, lost a few of those beliefs along the way and did it in front of about 8,000 of my closest strangers. I’ll never get that month of my life back. :o
You’re right, it is(she said soothingly). I gave the Bible just 9.90% of my overall beliefs, so I have no arguments for it’s literality.
Well I liked it. Irony is my favorite sport and irreverence my biggest sin.:smack:
I really don’t think so. You might just get your eyebrows singed everyday until you stop being so stubborn. Since God hates lukewarm believers worst of all, you’ll probably be too far back to feel the heat. Bring sunscreen, just in case.
I’m not sure if there’s any point in continuing this discussion; I’m telling you that some of your questions are impossible to answer because they don’t make sense to me; you’re insisting that I try and now suggesting that I ‘just guess’ - do you just want me to blurt out something that I consider totally false, but is trivial for you to demolish, then we can call it a day?
Mangetout:
Ok, let me see if I have this straight. Regarding the original questions you posted, which I have quoted so many times. You said that they are not good questions because you as a liberal Christian don’t require the same degree of certainty in your beliefs as do fundamentalists and that you get your input regarding the Christian gods existence and his instructions on how to live from personal revelations rather than just the bible.
However, when I inquire about what kind of certainty you hold in your beliefs (differentiating you from the fundamentalist perspective by your own criteria) you say you won’t answer claiming you don’t understand the question. I also inquire about your personal revelations and your mums on that to. Now tell me, why should anyone be taking your view seriously on this?
Here’s what I think is really going on. I asked you how sure you were regarding your beliefs in Christianity (the ones in particular that I think you personally would find important). Rather than my questions of certainty not making sense to you I think they put you between a rock and a hard place.
On one hand, if you pick 100% (or close) certainties, then you are no different that the fundamentalists and my earlier statement holds strong:
“you and the fundamentalists have the same bias for wishful thinking about the same stuff. It just seems that you skip some steps in where you stop applying a rational argument and let faith take over.”
On the other hand, if you pick a certainty meaningfully less than 100% (I’ll let you decide what is meaningful) then you have just quantified you lack of faith, and I don’t think you are ready to do that, given all the importance your god reportedly puts on that type of stuff.
To claim that my questions don’t make sense to you… I mean really, they’re simple questions and we’re all adults here.
Regarding your not wanting to talk about your personal revelations, I would guess that my earlier characterization of them was pretty close to the mark.
I believe you’re quite wrong in most if not all of your guesses, but I’m not interested in trying to discuss it with you any more. (of course, you’ll most likely proclaim this as some kind of vindication of your assertions, but these proclamations are just baiting tactics - you want me to leap in to try to defend my wounded pride and and blurt out something I don’t really mean.
I should have stuck with my original position of refusal to play your game.
Mangetout:
Hell yeah I will. I’ve been polite. I’ve answered your questions throughout without any prodding. While every question answered by you was preceded by considerable kicking and screaming to the point where you stonewalled yourself into the corner I described above.
No they aren’t. They are my assessment of the situation. I was 99.5% sure from the start that you didn’t have a good answer for the questions you mentioned. Now I’m 99.999999% sure. You were dishonest for pretending you did.
I want you to reexamine your theology, or at the minimum be a little less hypocritical to your fundamentalist brothers in faith, of which you share such similarities.
badchad I think you have a 99.999% chance of getting your eyebrows singed.
IWLN;
Your cool.
Thanks. That’s 'cause Jesus loves me. And Santa, too.
For some reason I am reminded of a conversation that took place many years ago between myself and a newspaper reporter.
It was the summer of 1985 and I had decided to part with my long flowing locks; a colleague suggested I shave my head to raise funds for charity and I decided the proceeds would go to the British Kidney Patient Association.
Being 1985, there was much talk about Live Aid; the interview with the newspaper reporter went something like this:
Reporter: So you’re shaving your hair off for charity?
Mangetout: Yes, people have really been generous and enthusiastic with their sponsorship
**R: ** So how much do you expect to raise for Live Aid?
**M: ** I expect to raise about [£amount], but the proceeds will actually go to the British kidney Patient Association…
**R: ** So you’re not supporting Live Aid?
**M: ** I’ll be supporting Live Aid in a number of ways, but this particular money is promised to the BKPA.
**R: ** So you think that’s more important than Live Aid?
**M: ** I didn’t say that, but it is important to remember that there are other charities that also need donations.
**R: ** Is it because the Live Aid money is going to Africa? - don’t you support foreign aid?
**M: ** As I said, I AM supporting Live Aid in other ways.
**R: ** But you don’t want them to have this money?
**M: ** Well, we can only give it away once and we’ve chosen the BKPA as the recipient - it is a local charity that is in need of funds.
**R: ** I see, so you think Local charities are more important than starving children in Africa?
…Etc, ad nauseam.
There was no possible explanation that would have been acceptable; there was no way to get my point across, even though I really believe I did have a valid point.
In the end I just had to shut my mouth and walk away.
Mangetout - Awesome analogy. Thumbs up from God.