Sevastopol, I apologize for calling you European (not that there’s anything wrong with that). I obviously had you confused with a different asshole.
As a rule, Israelis do not claim to want all Jews to live in Israel, although there are exceptions. We generally consider anyone who actually chooses to live here crazy. Still, we do tend to see ourselves as the representitives of the Jewish world, and we’re always prepared to act as a safe haven to Jews who need it - like the Ethiopians, for example.
That Mossad-NZ thing was a major fuckup, wasn’t it? They shouldn’t have been doing it, and they definitely shouldn’t have been causght. Still, it’s a bit of a tempest in a teacup. Wellington didn’t have to make such a big deal of it - I’m sure these things happen all the time, and you only hear about them when a government has a bone to pick.
(For those not in the know - a couple of Israelis were caught recently in New Zealand forging a passport. The NZ government claims they’re Mossad agents, and while the Israel has denied it, it’s caused a bit of an uproar, and NZ-IL relations have turned decidedly frosty).
For number 2, I thank you. That was always my belief. I always thought being Israeli was different from being Jewish. But it Jewish people were always welcome to become Israeli.
For number 3. Yes it was a major fuck up. And yes Wellington reacted as it should! Israel and NZ are countries of similar population but far apart in profile. One country should not treat the other like they are daft. If they do they should be prepared to be told off when they are caught.
As a Kiwi I really did feel Israel was taking the piss out of NZ. Kinda like “You are the weakest link” (ok so that was a tv show :D) but no it was not a tempest in a teacup.
We may be a teacup but we care about our tempests. It did make me giggle that you said “They shouldn’t have been doing it, and they definitely shouldn’t have been causght.” It always sucks to be caught.
If I had a dollar for every time an Israeli asked me if I was making aliyah when I was studying there, I’d…well, I’d have had quite a few extra falafels. I was occasionally given the speech about how Jews ought to all live in Israel, for sure. Always from olim, though. Never heard anything like that from native Israelis - I think there is some amount of resentment towards olim from wealthy countries who came too late to serve in the army and then return to their home countries before their kids are drafted. I always got the feeling that Israelis like that American Jews are well-placed enough in the US that they can have influence on US foreign policy. If all American Jews went to Israel, that would be lost.
First there’s the small detail of them actually being Mossad agents and not just some random common criminals. I suppose not all Israeli criminals caught abroad absolute have to be nefarious Mossad agents. The guys are denying any connection (claiming they’re part of an organized criminal group) and Israel is denying any such involvement. Still everyone knows if Mossad/CIA/KGB/etc. deny they’re probably guilty as hell, so who knows. But still if Helen Clark is so damn sure, she should damn well stop playing coy with facts like a virgin on her first date because she’s not and I want to see some hard evidence. Especially since the men are not charged with espionage and have no opportunity to defend themselves from her accusations. But assuming they were Mossad agents, no doubt about it. Mossad screwed up pretty badly, and what’s worse acted nearly inexcusable amateurishly. I have no big problem with Mossad agents using New Zealand passports. Partly because I’m not a Kiwi and partly because spies do a valuable and absolutely essential piece of work. We need more spies in terrorists organizations not less.
Then there’s the matter of proportional response. Such small international screw-ups are normally handled silently through back door channels, and not blown up in public televised court. And especially not a matter for prime ministers (or in this case prime twats) to dirty their hands with. Helen Clark’s very personal and strong involvement smacks of a strong desire to come down hard on one side of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, she walks into the dirt and comes out smelling like a women who has been twitching for just such an opportunity to throw a hissy fit at Israel and snatched the alleged agents screw-up as a god send chance. She’s entitled to her opinion of Israel but should lose the flimsy excuses.
Then there’s the thing with the defacement and vandalism of Jewish cemeteries in Wellington that strangely enough happened just at the same time. Not Clarks fault, but Jesus! get a grip Kiwis . And then the part where Hamas welcomes their new ally in the holy war against the common enemy “the Zionist entity” as they so eloquently calls it . Of course Helen Clark should not be held responsible for what Hamas says, but you gotta admit, that when you have mass murdering terrorists congratulating you on a wise decision it’s a pretty good indicator that maybe, just maybe, you’re not following the right path. Then there’s the completely ridiculous statement by the so-called expert (Professor Veitch – what the fuck does it take to become professor down there? Do you have a lottery?) who proclaimed Hamas’ endorsement was a just jolly swell since it would make life safer for the kiwi troops stationed in Iraq when Hamas’ praise spread through terrorist networks. When terrorists praise you, you ignore it or tell them to go fuck a camel (which Helen Clark, phrased somewhat different and with somewhat reluctantly). You absolutely never try to profit from it.
I strongly dislike Helen Clark and the idiotic Labour party for a number of other reasons, so I, like Helen Clark was just twitching for a reason to come down with a rod of iron. New Zealand was for a short time a beacon of liberalisation, a star in the night, a paragon of nations. Then the stupid socialists took over again, and now it’s back to the same old yada yada yada. Of course now you got them hobbits - and the one ring! (The principal of one my daughters’ school travelled to New Zealand to study schools and came back really fired up, saying you had created something unique over there. Of course that was before the Labour party)
I guess you mean PT? Read the above link and vote differently!
It is a fact that as far back as the Dreyfus trial The French have had a special place in their heart for some good ol’ fashioned Jew hatin’
But… surely… there is no truth to the fact that there is a general pattern of french anti-semitism
I don’t see a problem with Sharon reminding French Jews that whenever their countrymen start burning down a few too many synagogues, that they might wanna leave.
And if the French are really all that pissed off, why don’t they stop being anti-Semitic assholes instead of condemning Sharon for calling them on the carpet?
And no, in my mind, it doesn’t matter what the French Jews think. Sharon is, yes, playing politics, but he’s also doing a vital service. He is reminding the world that Israel was founded, exists, and will continue to exist as the last bastion where Jews can be free. A place to which they can flee to escape another Shoah, or simply some more friendly lil’ pogroms.
You know, That’s not what people want to hear: Anti-Semitism is on the rise again.. Even if it’s true.
I’ve tried to convince people that it’s a documented fact, but the ‘pro-palestine, pro muslim - fashion du jour’ supporters refuse to believe there can be anti-semitism and anti-muslim feelings at the same time.
I bet sevastopol accuses mother Theresa of lying in favor of the Jewish people.
I’m sure if they had arrived waving “I am a spy” banners whatever govt they belonged to would deny them. There would not be much sense in not denying would there? They wern’t charged with espionage just with obtaining false passports. They were found guilty and sentenced very lightly. Israel should be angry that NZ is so lenient unless it is in a hurry to have it’s criminals back.
You are not alone in wishing that the NZ govt would show the evidence that these guys are Mossad but they say they have it. If I have to chose to believe Israels “No they ain’t spies just naughty Israelis on holiday” line or the line Helen is giving me, I will chose Helen’s line. So shoot me. Personally I think Israel has more need for spies then NZ has need to cause a shitstorm.
Oh and if you think all those spy types need foreign passports let them have your countries. Denmark seems equally suitable for the job.
You think that if the same situation had happened anywhere else, with all the emphasis on security, that it would not have been mentioned? Yes I’m sure Britain, America, Australia or anywhere else wants their passports to be obtained falsely. Hey was that just Osama that booked into the New York Hilton on a New Zealand passport?
Yes Helen was loud about it but she is not known for being quiet. If you are trying to suggest she is anti Israel because of this I suggest you are wrong.
Yes that was a TERRIBLE thing but bigots and wankers very rarely need a reason to behave as such and New Zealnd like ALL countries has it’s share of bigots and wankers.
Well you said it yourself! Derranged lunatics do not wait for New Zealands approval.
Some idiot flaps his jaws and that means New Zealand is trying to profit from terrorists? You are smoking the same thing as the professor it seems.
I strongly like Helen Clark and the “idiotic” Labour party for a number of reasons. The “stupid” socialists took over again in the nick of time.
Helen’s only major opposition has “I’m a bigoted (but my wife is from Singapore) capitalist, knee jerk, idiot” tattoed on his forehead and his favourite sport is giving speeches designed to tap into racism and fear of crime. Yep that sounds like good politics. The sad fucking thing is it will work and he will win the election.
Then you can be a happy camper again. Why NZ politics has you quite so worked up remains as much a mystery as Mossad.
It always amazes me when folks, in direct contradiction to reality, think that Arafat is some sort of ‘dove’. That the Jews have caused the entire world to hate them. And that anything they get is coming to them…
Or they just ignore a global pattern of anti-Semitism.
~baffled~
It seems to feed into the system and be part of the problem.
America would have never given African Americans the right to equal citizenship if we just pretended that things were just peachy.
I really can’t figure out why instead of saying “yah, we’re doing wrong, we need to stop” people pretend that they’re perfect… or maybe I just answered my own question.
I only have one country and I don’t think anybody know where it is. Or would care much if they knew.
Mossad clearly fucked up and everybody agrees you are entitled to a bit of fuming and hissing. Though I believe the response Helen Clark chose to go with was wrong and damaging. And you are committing a comparison of nearly Godwin proportions when you liken Mossad to Bin Laden. There is no comparison and you shouldn’t imply there is.
I’m sure I’ll be absolutely overjoyed! Not so long ago I spend a half year travelling through New Zealand. From Auckland (whole city blacked out while we were there. People go trapped in shopping malls heh heh) to Christchurch. Wellington (lousy windy weather, I was at a Maori festival there. The president of Argentine went into panic and started to cry in fear when his plane landed in Wellington airport), Nelson, the gold coast (any more relaxed than those folks and you’re dead), etc. Beautiful country. Great people. Very laid back and friendly. Hopelessly political naïve and leftist of course, but we can’t all be perfect. A bit of an inferior complex for your neighbour perhaps. But on the whole I think you’re super. Very nearly immigrated we did.
Well your location says Denmark so I took that to be your country. Damn you are right we Kiwis are all stupid in the head.
I never compared the two at all. I suggested that a country has an abosolute duty to make sure those who obtain passports are citizens. If one group can falsely obtain then, then surely others can.
That was a splendid little travelogue. I do remember the black outs. Such fun. I’m touched you think we are super, what a shame you only nearly immigrated. Helen misses you already.
As to your links I think you give Helen and New Zealand far more credit then either deserve. Though I’m sure Helen would love to be much more important she hardly rates a blip when it come to influencing world opinon.
Other then the HORRIBLE episode in the cemetary I would be very disappointed to find that any Jewish person felt discrimination towards them in NZ (though I am more then prepared to apologise if I am wrong)
Is it possible that the French anti-Semitism statistics are on the rise because of a recent influx of North African immigrants, many of which happen to be Muslims?
So, in short, the problem is Jews from North Africa clashing with Muslims from North Africa – doing the same thing they did in North Africa, but in France. You have yet to show me a large rise in the general amount of anti-Semitism in the reason. The BBC’s report shows France is the only country with a sharp increase in attacks. And even that report attributes it to North African immigrants.
Sorry, but I don’t buy your rather outrageous claims.
Never said that. I said Helen Clark was a certified twat (and that Goff guy sounds like a fuckhead). The rest of you are super. I live in Copenhagen so I guess I’m Danish. If it was up to me Mossad could have a few Danish passports, unfortunately I’m neither king nor dictator. But when I do become absolute dictator you can be sure which twats will be the first against the wall.
But that neatly sidesteps institutional anti-Semitism, judicial anti-Semitism, and the fact that the french as a culture have been anti-Semitic for some time.
Um…
Did you like, read my cites? Or are you just cherry picking the French rebuttal and claiming it to be fact?
First and foremost. Jews from North Africa? So you’re telling me that the Jewish cemeteries that were vandalized, the school that was assaulted, the temples which were burned to the ground, those are allllllllllllllll owned by African Jews?
And… um…
Charles de Gaulle is a north African Muslim?
I’m sorry… I don’t see the line in that where the teacher says “only north African Muslims do that, the rest of my students don’t.” Mind showing me where she says that?
Ordinary for students… I’m sorry. I must’ve missed the point where she said “ordinary for ONLY north African Muslim students” you wanna show me where she says that?
Most… most means that ‘in short’ we don’t have to look for any other causes or problems? Maybe… oh…I don’t know… a culture that is historically acceptant of anti-Semitism?
But all of that was done solely by north African Muslims? (Muslims go to and preach at church?)
Meyssan is a north African Muslim? All the people who bought her books are north African Muslims?
The judges were all north African Muslims?
It was the fault of north African Muslims that there was no national debate?
And when Pascal Boniface tacitly threatens all Jews who support Israel …
…he magically turns into a north African Muslim?
And surely when the French distort history…
… they are doing it because secretly, the French are from North Africa and are Muslims?
And when the French suggest that the Jews or the Israelis are committing “'genocide” or acting like Nazis…
… it is because, some time ago, aliens transplanted lots of north African Muslims into France and bleached their skin white and made them think they were Christians.
I’m glad that you’ve got such a solid and rational worldview to counter my totally outrageous claims.
There hasn’t been a recent influx of North-African immigrants. At the contrary, the number of immigrants in France has significantly decreased due to much stricter immigration laws. The people involved are generally second of third generation immigrants.
The rise of antisemitic attacks is quite obviously primarily tied to the Intifida, and also to many other issues (social problems in disfranchised city subburbs in particular social exclusion of the young muslims, spreading of fundamentalist islam, war in Irak, etc…)
There aren’t many Jews left in north Africa, so they wouldn’t have been doing the same thing there. The attacks don’t specifically target Jews of north african origin, either. And as I wrote above, they’re generally carried out by people who probably never set a foot in North-Africa. At the contrary, last year, an attack against a synagogue in Tunisia was partly organized from France.
Even if it only happens within a subset of the general population, it’s still a rise of antisemitism.
What exactly do you call “institutionnal antisemitism,” or “judicial antisemtism”???
What rebuttal are you refering to, exactly?
What issues do you have with these rulings? Apparently, you’re accusing the judges of being antisemitic.
If I’m not mistaking it with another fire (and I don’t think so, since this fire originally made the headlines), the fire in Trappes was eventually found to be an accident caused by the nightward of the synagogue who was drunk and was smoking. He faked an antisemitic attack to cover his ass. A rabbi aparently pulled the same trick recently. Should the judges have nevertheless stated they were antisemitic attacks just in order not to look like antisemites? (Actually, I don’t even think the judges were involved, apart from possibly in the trial of the nightward, if there has been one).
As for the second case you’re mentionning, since racial hatred motivating an assault is an agravating circumstance under french law, it seems quite logical to me that the sentence would be reduced if the judges established that it wasn’t the primary motivation. Do you have any evidences that the attack you mentionned was actually primarily motivated by racial hatred? I somehow suspect you don’t, but just have decided that each time something turn out not to be related with antisemitism, it’s only because judges are covering it up.
What year are you refering to exactly? Following which incidents? I certainly remember a lot of media coverage of the antisemtic attacks under Jospin, and a lot of speeches by leading politicians about this issue (including Jospin, who by the way was so much an antisemite that he was stoned by Israelis…err…no, wait…by palestinian refugees…during an official visit). From where exactly does your quote come from?
As for the rest of your cites, I would point out that quoting something that you found somewhere on the web doesn’t magically makes the analysis you quoted true. I would need some evidences to back what is only an opinion, and in my view, a strongly mistaken one. I didn’t ever notice such things as the Jews being considered as only accidentally victim of nazism, for instance. An opinion doens’t magically becomes a fact as soon as you’re quoting it.
Or else, I suppose I could mention the calls to murder issued by a Jewish organization against a Jew who had the audacity of criticizing Israel, the militants of the Betar chasing random muslim people in the streets and stabbing a police officer who tried to stopp them after a pro-Israeli protest, the article written by Claude Lanzmann (the director of “Shoah”) and published in “Le Monde” who basically stated that anything written about the Palestinians being victimized in the occupied territories (from unrooted trees to people being killed by settlers) was lies (This one was a major dissapointement to me . I used to respect Lanzmann).
These examples would be worth as much as yours to prove that actually it’s the Jews who are leading a racist campaign against the muslims in France. Of course, you’re not allowed to state that these are picked and choosen examples not reflecting the overall situation, since you’re holding a similarily caricatural view of what’s hapening over here.
I somehow assume that discussing with someone who thinks that when something is proven not to be an antisemitic attack, it must be because the police/judges/whatever are antisemites busy covering the truth is quite pointless, though.
