Arming teachers

Great Debates
1

Yeah, I know how this thread’s going to go. But I slept on the idea, and decided to say to hell with it and go forward. Honestly though, I don’t know if this is a debate or not, because I’m “just asking questions”. But I want to know some facts/opinions/debate points, etc.

The point gets made after nearly every school shooting to arm teachers. I’ve made my feelings known (it’s a dumb idea–my mother and aunt were teachers, and wouldn’t have been able to hold a gun properly, much less face an attacker–but my mother and aunt are beside the point, since they’re small data points).

The point I want to make, and the question I want answered is: how will arming teachers work? Who will pay for it?
]
Let’s go through this:

According to the National Center for Education Statistics, the average annual salary for public school teachers ranges from below $50,000 to just over $75,000.

Given that’s not a tremendous amount of money, plus the fact that it’s not uncommon for teachers to have pay for their own supplies source, is it expected that teachers also pay for their own gun training?

Second: The training itself. The National Review mentions how long it takes to become a trained armed guard:

Okay, that’s fine for firearms training. However, that’s very different than training to face a person armed with an AR-15. If I have a total of 12 hours of training (Tennessee), am I really going to be able to face people like the Columbine shooters?

Third: Who coordinates the defense in the school? Scenario: an armed attacker enters the school and starts shooting. All the teachers are armed. Who’s the field general, making sure that Mr. Schmidt in room 201 doesn’t come running into the hall blasting Mrs. Wilkins, who also has a gun, and is looking for the shooter?

TLDR: I want more details on how arming teachers would work: who pays, who coordinates the defense, etc. Until I get a rational (not emotional) answer, I’ll decline the idea.

2

I feel like arming teachers would lead to more student deaths, more confused situations where someone “felt threatened”–possibly legitimately–so panicked and shot someone instead of deescalating the situation. Even if armed teachers reduced the body count at mass shootings (which I am not sure is the case), I think those deaths have to be taken as a meaningful offset. Part of my reasoning is that the teachers I know that want guns are the sort to feel threatened easily and to perceive what I see as youthful behavior as threatening and aggressive insolence.

There’s also plenty of disgruntled teachers. The whole profession is recreationally disgruntled. I think the number of workplace shootings would also go up, just from opportunity. It doesn’t have to go up MUCH to offset any benefits.

3

And what happens when a teacher doesn’t correctly secure the gun and a student gains access? Is the teacher liable? Is the school? Are the gun safes available for the teachers?

4

If you feel you must increase school defense by bringing in more guns, I’d recommend hiring more police officers and assign them to patrol the schools rather than arming the staff.

5

I haven’t seen a serious proposal. But let us assume the purpose is to both make schools less attractive targets and to stop shooters earlier. Potential risks include standard firearm accidents, plus less-trained teachers hitting students or each other. I’m assuming there woudn’t be a down-the-hall-blasting sort of defense. More a shelter-in-place and shoot if someone comes in. Hopefully not the cops.

Serious WAGs: Some rando answer.com page told me maybe $400 for a pistol. Let’s say $100 for a probably insufficient training course. Times over 3 million teachers. So $1.5 billion.

If that number is real, and everyone should be skeptical of any numbers I ever post, that seems like an awful lot of money targeted at something that is not a major cause of death.

6

Our school has a uniformed police officer on duty all day long every day. I think it far more preferable than paying a fortune to train a host of amateurs who might end up creating more chaos and harm than good.

7

ISTR the Florida school in the news recently had two such officers on duty.

Teachers are teachers of children, not killers. IF one were to safely and securely maintain a sidearm, and IF said teacher were able to draw and put sights on an active shooter, I have my doubts about said teacher’s ability to put a slug into one of the people (s)he has dedicated his/her life to nurturing. Too many IFs punctuated by a substantial doubt.

Better answer: build a 20-foot concrete perimeter around the school, restrict and screen anyone seeking access, anyone carrying a firearm or other murderous device is summarily executed with it outside the perimeter and their body displayed at an entrance. And don’t go getting all “due process” on me. Schools perform unwarranted searches on students and their possessions all the time, ostensibly in the name of law enforcement. This is no different.

8

While I would prefer an actual police officer over poorly paid and even poorly trained teachers, I don’t think a single police officer for some schools would be sufficient. The school that just got shot up was a multilevel, multi thousand student campus, and the chances of a single officer being in the right place at the right time in a case like that is pretty slim.
The disadvantage of hiring enough officers is the cost, but the advantages would be trained personnel that have radio contact with each other and the school office(less confusion).

9

A first grader brought a loaded gun to my son’s school a few years back. Gonna execute a little girl?

10

If it keeps her from becoming someone’s teenage daughter it’d probably be a net win. And, tongue was firmly in cheek on the execution bit. Due process is still cool, and I wish the schools wouldn’t shortcut around it like they do.

11

I don’t think there are any serious proposals, but it comes up after every school shooting, so I wanted to address the issue.

Exactly. These were armed guards. And teachers are expected to not only teach (creating materials, grading papers, all the other things teachers do), but to buy a gun (are school districts going to provide guns?), go through training, AND, when the situation calls for it, remain level-headed enough to protect 15-30 students while simultaneously shooting another human being (who may or may not be dressed in body armor, something that teachers normally don’t wear during the school day).

I just want to know how that’s’ supposed to work. Imagine Calvin’s teacher as a Schwarzenegger clone. I know she’s intimdating, but an Army Ranger she ain’t.

12

For armed teachers to be an effective deterrent there would have to be enough of them spread out over the campus to make it difficult to avoid them.

  1. Are there enough teachers that want to be armed when in school?
  2. Who will pay for the proper training?
  3. What is the proper training?
  4. Will they be screened to make sure that they should be given such a responsibility, the way police are supposed to be screened and, if so, who will pay for this screening?
13

Again with the solution to the gun problem being more guns. I have yet to see more guns improving things as far as murders go.

14

Since this never happens in prisons, build schools like prisons. I think that’s just as logical as arming Miss McKibbon and Mr Ripley.

Yeah, I got nothing.

15

I don’t think they’re small data points. I think they’re typical of large numbers of teachers, which is one of the reason arming them isn’t the answer.

16

Presumably there’s data on this. According to this article from 2014, “[l]egally gun-owning adults are now allowed to carry guns in public schools in more than two dozen states, from kindergarten classrooms to high school hallways. Seven of those states specifically allow teachers and other school staff to carry guns in their schools.” We must know whether that resulted in “more student deaths” or an increase in workplace shootings.

17

So we now expect teachers to be ready and prepared to take out armed assailants? Are we going to give them training on this? Is there a lot of skill crossover between the kind of person who makes a good kindergarten teacher and the kind who is good at combat tactics? Given the teachers often spend their own salaries to purchase classroom supplies, are they also expected to purchase their own arms and ammunition? Given that the president’s proposed budget cuts education funding, where is the money for this going to come from? What evidence do you have that this is an effective measure? If they can’t pass the training, will they lose their jobs as educators? How are we going to roll this out, how are we going to monitor its effectiveness and what are your metrics for success?

18

Kindergarten Cop-The Reality Series

19

Cops and teachers. In America, anything we don’t want to deal with, we just dump on cops and teachers to deal with. We have huge holes in our public safety net and we expect cops and teachers to clean it up. Not only that, but we also get politicians regularly shitting on teachers and their union, but we want Mrs. Crumblebum to take out a sociopath between decorating her classroom with hearts for Valentine’s Day.

20

Has any one asked teachers because it makes them the very first target? Which is a shame when your vocation isn’t security guard.