In juxtaposition of all the theories that abound, what if this really was a botched kidnapping? Say someone knew the Ramseys tangentially, like a co-worker of John, but really far off the radar. This person might have access to the house via a Christmas party that everyone from there got invited to by via default. Repeat a time or two for various ‘special’ occasions. Then, my hypothetical killer, would also (perhaps through the grapevine) learn of the supposed bonus amount. All the better to frame that nasty uppity man! Now in the midst of all this, the plot is hatched to coincide with the winter holidays and somehow a tablet of theirs is acquired in advance. Yeah, I know it’s a stretch, but so is the whole damn case, right? Anyway, it could have been a useful memento from a trip inside the house, when left alone, and on the way to the bathroom (or back yard for a smoke).
All that accomplished, the perp strikes while he knows everyone will be gone but JonBenet. However, she struggles more than she should (and maybe this is where it excites him – which he figures is a “what the hell, I’m already in for a penny” moment and follows through to some degree) and the next thing you know, she’s dead and the rest is up shit creek.
Now I realize that’s all probably BS speculation. And has enough holes to drive a Mac truck through, but boy howdy, it’s interesting to consider. Plus, isn’t that the best we have to offer now, just wild ass guesses? Karr notwithstanding. Because we certainly haven’t seemed to get anywhere, with the Denver PD leading, with reasoned reflection.
There have been many people to already confess to killing JonBenet Ramsey. Just as for every famous serial killer out there there were multiple people who confessed to being the killer. In general the nutjob confessions don’t make it very far because law enforcement can easily spot them and dismiss them after some rudimentary police work.
The reason this has gone as far as it has, at least from what we know publicly is that Karr knows something about the case that has never been released to the public (and still hasn’t.) Which means whatever he knows, is significant enough yet secret enough that it has never found its way out onto the wide world of the internet in all these years.
The rest of this story, I think, needs to just be left alone until Karr is extradited to Colorado and the charges of murder go through against him. At that time, if the DA has significant evidence it will come to light, for sure. A whole lot of the stuff that was contradictory/weird that we’ve heard since Karr surfaced hasn’t even come from the mouths of the people who arrested/interviewed Karr.
The authorities who will actually be prosecuting Karr have in fact said very little. And until they make some more official statements with some sort of information I think everyone is just working themselves up in wild speculation.
She seems to me to have been *over-*killed. This suggests to me either 1) rage; or 2) an accidental death (i.e., you push someone and she hits her head) camouflaged by other deadly means.
I still think this was an accidental death, possibly caused by a family member (especially another kid) or close family friend, that was covered up by one or both parents.
Aw crap wring, how did I forget that?? I tip my hat to you while I hang my head in shame. :smack:
Ok, now I’m truly chastised. Moving along, may I then swap that part in my theory to postulate that the killer was already in the house? Being all stealthy like and everything, since he was so intimate to all the intricacies surrounding the family, doncha know.
Yeah, I suck. Which means I’ll give up. ::: ominous drum roll cue and plea for more gratuitous smiley usage ::: For now.
Obviously you’re just refusing to read the posts that have been put here, or the links within them.
I have no idea as to the veracity of this claim. Considering you keep making patently false claims about handwriting and snow cover, I don’t think it is out of line to ask for a cite on this one.
Again, from what I’ve read, “The samples of handwriting that John and Patsy provided to the police were later found to bear no similarities to those on the ransom note.”
The similarities suggested, to my knowledge, come from a private linguistics scholar who was hired to assist Steve Thomas, a former lead detective in the case, write a book demonizing and accusing the Ramseys of the murder. This linguistic scholar, Donald Foster, had previously said that his opinion was the note was written by an adolescent who had quickly written it out in a panic. Donald Foster had offered his services to the Ramseys based on his existing observations of the ransom note. The Ramseys turned down his help. It was only after Foster was hired to help right a scandalous book little better than tabloid garbage that he suddenly made his “analysis” that it bore a similarity to Patsy Ramsey’s handwriting.
Obviously Foster has no reason to lie here, other than money and prestige. And law enforcement obviously has just decided to maintain that Patsy Ramsey’s handwriting does not match that of the ransom note.
The same FBI that was assisting the Boulder police in a campaign to have them convicted for the murder of their daughter?
The Ramseys initially made an agreement with the Boulder police to take polygraph exams conducted by an independent expert in Atlanta. The Boulder police agreed, however their idea of an “independent expert” was an FBI examiner. IE a member of law enforcement. The Ramseys continued to suggest eminent men in the fields of polygraphy, to continually have the Boulder police reject anyone who was not the FBI examiner.
The Ramseys even recommended Edward Gelb as the man to conduct the tests. Edward Gelb is a former president of the American Polygraphy Associationn. He was selected from a pool of 2,400 testers because he was the most experienced, having conducted 30,000 tests over 30 years. Gelb had served as a trainer to the FBI and the Department of Defense. He was also known in the industry for his fairness and expertise.
But again the Boulder police rejected this man, the guy who TAUGHT some of the FBI examiners, because he wasn’t a member of law enforcement and this wasn’t an “independent” expert.
Finally, Richard Keifer, Chairman of the American Polygraph Association made the offer that they would conduct an examination to the same standards as the FBI and with the same controls. The actually person chosen to conduct the examination would be left up to the APA, so that an independent third party of experts was going to choose an independent expert to conduct the exam. The Boulder Police again refused to sign on for this exam.
On May 24th the Ramseys decided to have Gelb conduct polygraph tests on them independently, as opposed to in agreement and cooperation with the Boulder PD. The results of the tests showed the Ramseys to have not harmed or killed JonBenet.
Gelb’s test results were reviewed and confirmed by Cleve Baxter, founder of the CIA’s polygraph unit. Robert Lee, the director of operations for Axciton Systems, the company that produces the polygraph equipment used by Gelb said the test results were 97-98 percent accurate.
Here is a quote from www.crimelibrary.com with information about the footprints:
Here is another quote about the lack of forced entry:
Further evidence of “forced entry”:
-A footprint was found in the dust of the wine cellar made by a Hi-Tec hiking boot that hasn’t been linked to the Ramseys or anyone who may have been in their home.
-An unidentified palm print was found on the door of the wine cellar.
-A piece of broken glass was found under a basement window, the window was broken and still showed signs of disturbance.
-There was a scuff-mark on the basement wall below the window. To get back out the basement window you would have to climb said wall, which would obviously have left scuff marks.
-The duct tape and cord used in the murder were not found in the Ramsey home, meaning these materials from which the bindings/murder weapon were made came from outside the home (or at least were later hidden by anyone inside the home who may have committed the murder, and have never been found since.)
This was not an accidental killing. A garrote is an instrument designed to kill, its use is deliberate and requires some degree of significant premeditation. JonBenet Ramsey’s autopsy reveals she was killed by asphyxiation from the garrote, she also suffered blunt trauma but the autopsy report is clear in that the garroting was what did her in.
Why not? If it’s truly a half-assed ransom note put together at the spur of the moment it’s hard to say what may come out. Whoever did this, be it Karr or someone else, had to have done some research into the Ramseys. Maybe he really did respect John as a businessman.
Again, this is all pure speculation on your part. Not “evidence” against the Ramseys of any kind. Many kidnappings involve bizarre or even nonsensical ransom notes. A ransom note written on the spur of the moment isn’t going to make sense. The ransom note could easily have been written just to buy time for the murderer to get out of the area.
If the Ramseys did this, do you really think that they would use John’s bonus amount in a ransom note? Even in the spur of the moment, if said ransom was not something that multiple persons already knew?
It appears John Mark Karr has a strong sense of femininity. Why interchange between “John” and “Mr. Ramsey.” I doubt that Karr knew Ramsey personally, so it is hard to say he had any habit of referring to him in either way. He probably started with “Mr. Ramsey” because that is a cliched way of referring to someone in a ransom note, and he probably began to use it interchangeably with John because he was trying to scrawl out what he felt was a convincing ransom note and get out of the home before he was discovered.
Um, how do you know the stationery wasn’t the first thing that came to hand? It’s obvious he probably could have found a cereal box or something to write it on, but it is a multiple page note, so stationery seems well suited to it and maybe the Ramseys didn’t have spiral notebooks laying all around or sheets of paper readily apparent to someone who doesn’t know every nook and cranny of the house.
Yeah, I think the biggest association is that the note uses “hence” and the Ramseys have used “hence” in the past. And some like to argue that “hence” is such an extremely rare word that no two individuals could independently use it.
How can you honestly make a bold claim that an intruder “simply would NOT have written ANY note”? What evidence is there that intruders wouldn’t write notes? Most people who sexually assault and brutally murder six year olds typically aren’t sane, rational individuals. He could have written the note just to string the Ramseys on. Or maybe he’s just stupid and thought it was the smart thing to do. Either way, there are a million reasons he may have left a note, just because it would have been better for him to NOT leave a note, doesn’t mean an intruder wouldn’t. If all criminals never did things that they shouldn’t do then criminals would never get caught, while in fact in the real world their own stupidity is the downfall of many criminals.
They began to behave suspiciously once they were with the understanding that they were being investigated by the police, not being used as aids in finding JonBenet’s killer. Guilty or innocent, one is not wise to start getting in bed with the police if you are being investigated for a crime. A friend of the Ramseys was one of the first to take notice of the fact that the police were coming after them and he began advising them from that point on to be very cautious in their dealings with the police. Regardless, while maintaining what is only a healthy amount of caution in the face of a persecutorial police investigation the Ramseys did cooperate to a great extent with investigators, they even did so when it could possibly just serve to help incriminate themselves.
The entire “no footprints” thing is based off of an off comment by one of the police officers who was working in a very small role at the crime scene. It was repeated to a journalist who ran with it. It was never a serious part of the investigation or the evidence against the Ramseys. Sure, the snow could have melted, or been trampled, or, it may have just never covered the entire yard (like I suspect.) Considering the complete lack of professionalism in the dealing with the crime scene and evidence in general that was shown by the Boulder police, if there WAS any evidence in the snow, I have no doubts that the Boulder police would have thoroughly trampled all over it long before it could be discovered.
Anyways, it is SNOW, footprints or lack there of aren’t evidence. The absence of evidence isn’t the evidence of absence. Considering no real evidence exists either way, we cannot just “assume” the evidence, if it had been preserved or recorded properly, would have been indicative of the Ramseys. There’s also no reason to assume the entire yard was covered, because as I’ve already shown people are saying large areas of the yard were devoid of snow. I’ve seen trampled snow, I’ve seen melted snow. If the yard was truly covered in snow, trampling or not, melting or not, some evidence of snow being in those parts of the yard where it had been trampled/melted would have remained.
I’ve yet to see a single piece of compelling evidence against the Ramseys. What I have seen is:
In an investigation in which evidence was routinely mishandled. Such an investigation has the audacity to provide “lack” of certain evidence (such as footprints or forced entry–the latter of which there was evidence) as “evidence” against the Ramseys. Furthermore said “lack” of evidence has been used extensively as “evidence” by the media against the Ramseys. There has been distortions, outright misrepresentations of fact, and wild speculation being reported as “fact” about the case so much that many of them have shown up in this thread despite being repeatedly dismissed.
Extremely spurious handwriting claims against Patsy Ramsey. Claims that have never been supported by law enforcement to my knowledge. Claims made by a man who was spurned by the Ramseys and was in the employ of a former Detective writing a tell all when he made the damning analysis that pointed to Patsy Ramsey.
Repeated investigation into the Ramseys, both with and without their cooperation. The Ramsey house was raided in a “pornography” raid to try and implicate John, JonBenet’s tombstone was bugged with the hopes that the parents might come by for a tearful confession. The Ramseys submitted to multiple interviews, DNA testings, handwriting analysis and etc for authorities. The Ramseys gave 4-5 handwriting samples each. One final sample given by Patsy was done multiple times with both hands. And yet not even remotely enough evidence ever came to the surface to even support a serious attempt at an indictment.
There was “no” evidence in that there was no evidence remotely compelling of an indictment. There was no evidence pointing to the Ramseys that was any more compelling that evidence you could probably find implicating any random person.
She was killed by ligature strangulation. More specifically circumferential ligature strangulation with associated ligature furrow on the neck. IE a cord (in this case a garrote) was wrapped around her neck, tightened, and held until she died. This is not something that happens accidentally. This is as reported in the official autopsy.
While other injuries were evidenced as well, the medical examiner’s expert opinion is she was strangled to death with a cord of rope, which was also found around her neck. I am not a medical examiner, or a medical professional of any kind. However I assume that a medical examiner can tell the difference between a body that has been killed by strangulation, and a corpse that has had a cord tightened around its neck to make it appear as though the person died of strangulation when in fact the person died from some blunt trauma (which could easily be accidental–result of a shove or even the child tripping.)
I don’t disagree about the coroner’s report, except that if a person fell over after blunt trauma (i.e., pushed her too hard, she hit the floor) and the perp thought she was dead, or thought it would now be better if she were dead, or wanted to cover up, I assume that further panicked or quick action might confuse the cause of death.
Unrelated to this post, but to keep from DPing, here’s a tidbit:
That really seems to me to be obsessive behavior, not the behavior of a murderer.
There is a person like this who is very vocal in the trans communities (the ones he hasn’t been banned from anyway). He had a link to a journal of another “little girl lover” who wrote that it’s easier to be a female pedophile because people trust you with their kids more. Like Karr, this individual claims to identify strongly with little girls to the point of wanting to be one.
Her gravestone reads December 25th. Also, I thought that it was said that Karr allegedly knew details of the crime that weren’t widely known, not that they were not known at all? The crime sleuthing message board I linked to has said they have been asked not to put forwards some “known facts” about the case by law enforcement because they are very obscure and they want to keep them that way. Apparently the medical examiner (blanking on his name, he was called on for the O.J. trial) slipped up at one point and gave the details in an interveiw. If a person was obsessed about the case they could find the information. These things are discusssed at the sleuthing site I linked to in previous posts, go read my links if you want to read for yourself. I think it is in a thread titled approximately JonBoney arrest pt. 2, or something similar.
'Cept I’ve never heard of anyone come up with a good explaination as to how Ramsey could do it and be so brutal in the killing (and not have a suspicious trail of other dead bodies in his wake). It’s always either: See what a sick fucker he is, look at how he murdered his daughter or it couldn’t be him, because there’s no way he’d be capable of doing such a brutal act to his daughter because he’s not been a suspect in any other brutal slayings. I’m saying that there’s a third possibility, that the initial injury/killing was accidental, and the brutality was done to throw suspicion off of him. 'Course I haven’t been following the case closely so maybe someone’s brought that possibility up.
Too many expressions of outrage to cite them all about Karr eating the meals provided in business class, apparently written by people who don’t understand that everyone in that section of the plane was also eating king crab, pate, etc. Aw, what the hell, [url=Karr set for L.A. court today – The Denver Post]here’s one:
Too many expressions of outrage to cite them all about Karr eating the meals provided in business class, apparently written by people who don’t understand that everyone in that section of the plane was also eating king crab, pate, etc. Aw, what the hell, here’s one:
And I saw something alleging that the SRS clinic now denies that they said anything to the media, because that would violate privacy. I’ll see if I can find it.
Here’s an allegation that Karr’s mother tried to kill him as a child and was later institutionalized.
The NY Daily News feels free to mock him and call him “creep” while also appearing to opine that he didn’t do it.
Karr allegedly claimed in an e-mail in 2001 that he hid under a bed. Apparently, there was a non-public conjecture that the murderer hid under a bed. However, some disclosures of this hypothesis were made very public at about the same time, and may have been floated earlier in a way that an obsessed person might have located. In addition, according to the article, he also claimed to have been at the Ramsey’s Christmas party and then enticed JBR downstairs; however, their Christmas party was on 12/23 (and, as noted above, his family claims he was with them across the country on 21/24). In addition, he claimed he was in Boulder, and (implied) at the Ramseys’, because his brothger worked for John Ramsey. However, there doesn’t seem to be evidence of this.
I never tried to dress my GI Joe to look like a male hustler like I’ve seen some of these mothers do (well, I guess it could be argued that GI Joe comes dressed like a male hustler, but let’s not go there), and my sisters never dressed their dolls up in highly-charged sexually provocative clothing and poses, but I guess you did.
I repeat, do you honestly think that little kids who dress up as sexual objects are at absolutely zero additional risk for predation as kids who don’t?
Moving along, may I then swap that part in my theory to postulate that the killer was already in the house? Being all stealthy like and everything, since he was so intimate to all the intricacies surrounding the family, doncha know. 
