I am sufficiently satisfied with friend Diane’s answer of “hyperbole” to let the matter pass. I ask only that she be mindful that her “hyperbole” has been used, and continues to be used, as a vicious and hateful slander against people no less conscientious then herself, who acted out of motives no less worthy than her own.
Fair enough.
I do however stand behind my belief that the “baby killer” comments and the spit did happen to some of these guys, just in muted versions and less publicly than the original tale.
Either way, the humiliation and hurt these soldiers felt was very real.
Elucidator, are you Quaker? (I ask because you used the phrase “friend Diane”.)
I would like to see some of this documentation. I do not doubt that there were a few isolated cases but the accusation that returning soldiers were spat on and “America turned its back on its vets” have been used for thirty years to tar those from the anti-war movement with the label of being “anti-American” and “against our military.”
And just because somebody told you it happened doesn’t mean it did. It is in these guys’ best interest to get their counsellor on their side and if exageration or even outright fabrication does the job then it cannot be discounted as an option.
Easy. It’s “extravagant exaggeration .” Or do you prefer “A figure of speech in which the expression is an evident exaggeration of the meaning intended to be conveyed, or by which things are represented as much greater or less, better or worse, than they really are; a statement exaggerated fancifully, through excitement, or for effect.” Useful in a rant but of negative value in a debate.
The Vietnam Era Veterans’ Readjustment Assistance Act (VEVRAA), but as I said, not just for Vietnam vets but all who served between 8/5/64 and 5/7/75. So vets who were never discriminated against, were never called “baby killers,” and who, like a friend of mine, spent the late '60s at a drafting table in Germany get affirmative action.
It is perfectly legal to aim and fire at the questionable tube in question. If people around it get killed while using it, well…
I was wondering this myself.
I gotta say dropzone, your responses in this thread are bit shocking. Why is it so hard for you to believe that some veterans had terrible experiences upon returning home. Diane has already conceded that it wasn’t EVERY one and it wasn’t EVERY DAY. Why do you continue with ‘they must be faking’ argument?
Sort of callous if you ask me.
He obviously never saw Born on the 4th of July. 
I pretty much remember how I and my friends felt about them. Down near the bottom were used car salesmen and pigs (that’s what we called police). Below them were the baby killers (that’s what we called soldiers). I’m sure some of them were spat on. Certainly, they were at the very least given dirty looks and treated like they had cooties.
I bet you do, however, I value the privacy of our clients and my job a bit more than my desire to prove something to you. Sorry, you are going to have to get off your ass and do some research yourself if it cranks your willy enough. I assure you, you’ll find something out there.
I don’t believe every story I have come upon is true, but I have been doing this long enough that I have gotten pretty good at distinguishing most truth from fiction, especially when they are backed by copies of documentation such as the police report I mentioned above.
I also didn’t claim there was some huge number of spit upon veterans called baby killers. I also clarified my “thousands” comment as soon as I realized how it sounded. I was only stating that these things DID happen.
Oh do tell old wise one, how is this in their best interest to get their counselor on their side. . . for uh wha’. . . huh? Their side of what? You make no sense. What would the purpose of making this up? Your comments convince me that you think you know what you are arguing, but in reality you have no clue. It’s hard to take you serious when you pull these things from your ass.
I have made the mistake of getting into a pissing match with you in the past when you have no fucking idea what you are arguing for or against. It just gets frustrating and my head starts to hurt from hitting it into the brick wall.
I’ve told you of my 15 years of experience with veterans – all type of veterans – I’ve told you that I have seen documentation. I’ve told you that I’ve gotten pretty good in my old age at telling the bullshit from the truth. You don’t believe me when I say that the Vietnam vet has not received the same respect as veterans from WWII or the Gulf. You seem to know this because “you were around back then” and “you know some vets”.
You don’t believe me and I think you are blowing smoke out of your ass just for the sake of seeing your name on your monitor. Guess we are at that brick wall again and I forgot my helmet.
Careful there Lib, drop will come in and tell you that you don’t exist.
That’s okay. Due to the constraints of logic, I cannot prove that I exist anyway.
One thing;
Are some of you here saying that because the Helo wasnt shot at that it couldnt defend itself?
Does an Apache have to have an RPG fired at it before it can take action?
If not, then I dont see what the problem is with the video. If the Three Iraqis were trying to fire, or setting up to fire an RPG at any Americans or any Apaches that would make them targets. I agree with those here that say we shouldnt condemn the US Apache soldiers for what they did until we hear their side of the story. It`s possible that the cannister they saw is a common explosive delivery device that has been used by Iraqi resistance in the past.
Diane, I worked with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War in Oakland during the early 70’s.
I also lived with a vet that had been honorably discharged during his second tour of duty because he had nightmares and would wake up screaming.
He thought he was drowning.
Call it a coincidence, but he was involved in the interrogation of Vietcong prisoners in Saigon and one of the methods that the Marines purportedly used in questioning was to pour water via a funnel down the prisoner’s throat.
I’m certainly not trying to discredit your experience as a counselor and I know you’ve met with many more veterans than I have and have a far better grasp of the whole picture.
However, the guys I knew felt far less betrayed by their civilians peers than they did by their government.
Post traumatic tress syndrome was barely acknowledge and there was consistent government denial about the effects of Agent Orange.
These men were dumped back into society with little or no psychological support.
We had to fight hard on their behalf to get them any sort of help at all.
I realize that this is a complex issue and I’m in no way claiming that the government’s abandonment of these men was totally responsible for many of the problems that they faced in their return.
But it sure as hell didn’t help the situation and considering the propensity that this administration has for slashing the benefits of military personal, I too am worried about what will happen when Johnny comes marching home again.
Baby, that’s the biggest IF I’ve ever seen.
And what the hell do you think the soldiers are going to say? By the time they tell the story it’ll be that the three men were holding up a sign that said “WE’VE COME TO KILL YOU”
I saw a great political cartoon the other day with a bunch of dead bodies strewn across a landscape and it said:
Pre-emption means never having to say your sorry.
I think Lib has it about right. As a Quaker in the anti-war movement back then, I remember both desperately wanting them out of harm’s way and resenting them for being there in the first place. He’s the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame - remember?
I think the spitting thing is a Hollywood cliche, but the sentiment behind it (to my shame now) was pretty accurate.
You know, I can honestly say I never called a soldier a babykiller, period and I never called a police officer a pig to his or her face (we did call them pigs amongst ourselves) and neither did anyone I know in the VVAW or the Panthers or numerous other organizations that I worked with.
YYMV.
and? So that means it didn’t ever happen? I’ve never, nor have any of my friends called women “hot tomatas”.
I, also, have been saying it wasn’t EVERY one nor EVERY day. I have simply been building up a suspicion that it wasn’t nearly as common as many people would like us to believe. the persecution of returning vets has been treated as common and used as a weapon against people like me for so long that yes, I would like to see some documentation. With witnesses. And video, if it’s available. Otherwise it is just hearsay. And if many of Diane’s clients say something happened to them BEYOND dirty looks and whispers (which could be imagined or misinterpreted) I will continue to take it with a grain of salt. The continuing martyrdom of the Vietnam vets needs some FACTS behind it before I will accept that ANYTHING happened, though I do assume there were a few isolated instances because some people are just stupid and mean. But I have tried to track it down and have come up against the same FOAF roadblocks that elucidator has.
OTOH, veterans of ALL bad experiences have to realize that other people (politer ones than me, that is) will avoid a subject if it makes you or them uncomfortable. If a vet seems to be functioning okay enough many people will not broach the subject of his war experiences and a guy might take this to mean they don’t care. Sometimes that is true but other times it’s just way people deal with things, putting things behind them in a “we will never speak of it again” manner. Yeah, it makes for awkward conversations and a feeling that nobody knows the trouble you’ve seen but other support networks did not exist back then. Vets got screwed because of it, but they were used to it by then. Vietnam vets had a steady diet of shit handed to them for their entire tours. When they got home there wasn’t the outpouring of appreciation for a job well done that their fathers had received for the reasons already discussed. Everything non-specific that jlzania said backs up my own understanding (in my case it was my father with untreated PTSD from WWII so I know the joys of living with it). Yes, I knew people like koeeoaddi who could not reconcile loving the soldiers while hating the war, though not very many of them, and most were easily turned back to thinking sensibly when one pointed out to them how hateful that thinking was.
Well, if you even know ONE example of this happening, I think it’s too many, in my opinion. Anyone who gives their life at home and their security in service to their country deserves respect. One guy/gal being spit on or persecuted for carrying out his countries orders is too many.
I disagree with almost everything about the war in Iraq, including the incident we’re discussing here…but I would never question the carrying out of orders. It’s the orders I have a problem with, and the administration.