When, in the past, Texarkana had a gay bar, it was the most integrated bar in town. Now you have to go to the smaller dance club inside the giant country bar to find a significanly integrated bar.
(And let me tell you, it is fun to walk through the parking lot packed with over-sized trucks adorned with"They’ll take my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hands" and confederate flag stickers then wade through the shit-kickers in their boots and hats to get to the club-within-a-club.)
Not that Texarkana is representative of anything. Just a data point.
In Dallas the club scene is more segregated except for The Village Station which is an expansive dance club that is usally packed with a representative sampling of races and genders. By the same token, though, people tend to self-segregate on other factors also. Throckmorton Mining Company is mostly bears. JR’s is mostly S&M (stand and model). And on and on.
Several people have reported to me that the gay area of Toronto is pretty white.
In case anyone is interested, two Chicana lesbian writers (Gloria Anzaldua and Cherrie Moraga) have explored this issue - being a racial minority + being gay - in depth, about how “lesbians of colour” experience homosexuality quite differently than white lesbians, both from their own ethnic community (already an oppressed minority in many cases) and from the LGBT community. An interesting read. Start with Anzaldua’s Borderlands - also a great read for those interested in cultural identity, aboriginal issues and so on.
I still have to take issue with that. You must be wearing your white goggles when you go to the Eagle or Green Lantern (I haven’t been to Omega in ages). There are always scads of people of color there. They aren’t necessarily black though. They could be asian, latino, or middle eastern. I haven’t noticed them to be non-ratially integrated at all.
There were two rulings on affirmative action yesterday, one upholding and one striking down. Which one was being lamented?
I can’t imagine what would possess anyone to do any of 3-6, but I’m unclear as to what’s so wrong about 1 and 2. I have types that I’m attracted to. One of the types that I am not particularly attracted to as a rule is black men. I don’t think it’s racist not to sleep with someone to whom I’m not attracted, even if it’s their ethnicity that leads to my not being attracted to them, any more than it’s sexist of me not to have sex with women because I’m not attracted to them. As for wanting to sleep with someone based solely on their race, well, I have to admit to wanting to do that too and again I don’t think it’s racist. What’s wrong with being curious about what it’s like to sleep with a person of a particular race?
Why make heterosexist assumptions about what gay people should be like based on their gayness? Isn’t that just as heinous as deciding what people of a particular race should be like based on their race?
For #1, what irks me is that I’m objectified because of my race. The person is not interested in me as a person. Rather they view me as some curiosity to have sex with solely because of my race.
As for #2, I suppose it’s not racist per-se, since I’m not being opressed, but it is discriminatory. Here, the person has made a blanket pre-judgment and completely closed himself to the possibility of finding me attractive, once again, solely because of my race.
Supposing I said that I’m not attracted to low-caste Indians. Wouldn’t we all find that wrong? I feel the same way about making racial judgments like this.
Plus, are you seriously telling me you don’t think Taye Diggs is hot?
Taye Diggs is a fine-looking man, but Catherine Zeta-Jones is a fine-looking woman, and I wouldn’t want to sleep with her, either. Like Otto, I’m not generally interested in black men, I don’t rule them out entirely, just that in general, black guys don’t make my motor run. I don’t think that makes me a bigot–different strokes for different folks.
Well, I was going to say I wouldn’t kick Taye out of bed for eating crackers, but I was afraid that would be construed as a racial comment. Heh.
Anyways, I see your point but I wonder how much “type” is being conflated with “race.” If one is attracted only to red hair and green eyes then there probably aren’t that many Asians or Indians or blacks that will fill that bill. Now if someone is actually saying to you “I won’t consider you because of your race” then that’s completely fucked up but if you’re just not their type then that’s not racism.
I really hesitate to label the idea of wanting to sleep with someone because of their race as out-and-out racist because I have to confess to that my own self. All but three of the men I’ve slept with have been white (two black, one Latino) and I would like to broaden my range of experiences. I wouldn’t have sex with an Indian just because he was an Indian but it’s points in his favor for being something different.
So as long as you do it, it’s okay and not racist.
BrightNShiny:
Why isn’t it “racist per-se”? There’s this idea that a racism only extends to one’s perception about a race’s intellegence or prowess, but the definition’s right up there: “belief that…racial characteristics produce an inherent superiority of a particular race” If you believe that whites are more attractive than all other races, isn’t that a belief in a inherent superiority? What’s the difference between rejecting all Asians, as a rule, from your love life because you feel that none of them can offer you anything sexually or romantically, despite their attractiveness (as there are two examples of agreement on a particular black actor’s sexual attractiveness from those who are “not attracted” to blacks), and rejecting all Asians, as a rule, from your business because you feel that none of them can offer you anything as employees, despite their qualifications?
I’ve been fighting against the idea that the gay community is some lovey-dovey, hippy-dippy, PC-driven, wouldn’t-talk-bad- about-nobody-'cause-we-know-what-it’s-like haven of niceness for years now. We aren’t! We’re human, just like everyone else.
The only thing that this overlaying impression of saintliness that the PC crowd has filtered over our head does is make it harder for the community to recover from incidents like the Jesse Dirkhising murder. It gives the Right a handle to condemn us even further. Look at the Matthew Shepard murder and the condemnation of the right because everyone was trying to paint Shepard as a saint. He wasn’t a saint. He was probably anticipating some rough trade from the men who killed him. This doesn’t mean his murder was his fault or that he deserved it. But it gave the Right a huge handle to grab when the canonization began.
In the same way, there is this assumption, outside the community, that there is no such thing as racism among gays. That we live happy in a rainbow-colored world of total racial blindness with no one’s skin-tone having anything to do with their first impression. This is a bad thing, because when gay racism does become public in some way, the mainstream has an excuse to say “See? I knew they were no good! It was just a front.”
Personally, I’ve come through an evolution in my tastes. When I was younger, I was almost exclusively attracted to white men. As I got into my twenties, I found that Asian men were becoming very interesting to me. Today, I keep finding an awful lot of African Americans and Latinos incredibly hot. There really isn’t a skin color or set of features that I don’t find attractive men in now.
In terms of sexual attractiveness, can we agree that no one is really “in control” of just who or what they’re attracted to? Some are into red hair. Some are into blonds. Some are into raven-black hair.
The problem with getting all riled because someone doesn’t find Asians or African-Americans attractive to them is that there are a lot of things people are and aren’t attracted to. What if someone likes snub noses? Blue eyes? Green eyes? Skinny men? Should we condemn the young man who wants to be with a father-figure because he won’t date guys his own age? When it comes to simple physical attraction, I don’t think racism comes into it.
I’m a rather large man. If I were to go into a righteous rage every time some little twink-boy looked at me like I had lice, my blood pressure would kill me before I got out the door of the local dance club. No one is required to sleep with another person. (I actually had a sign in my dorm room in college: “No one is obligated to sleep with you.” to remind me of this…I did used to get incensed over this kind of thing).
[QUOTE]
In terms of sexual attractiveness, can we agree that no one is really “in control” of just who or what they’re attracted to? Some are into red hair. Some are into blonds. Some are into raven-black hair.
[QUOTE]
Of course…
I don’t get riled up about anything. It’s just that I suspect that these “tastes” are based on old-fashioned, deep-ingrained, U.S.-style racism rather than just being arbitrary, especially since these “tastes” are so ubiquitous here while they aren’t so prevelant in even mostly-white European countries. You used the word “condemn” above in a supposedly parallel analogy and I think that that’s the problem, that “racism” is such a knee-jerk, super-perjorative word these days that no-one wants to admit to coming within 100 feet of it, so nobody’s honest about it. Do you think the man who’s so dismissive towards the idea of intamacy with another race that he’s moved to put “whites only” in his profile really views all races as being equal? There are so many types of white people and so many types of non-whites. He can’t possibly find every single white person more attractive than any member of any other race. And if he was just searching for green-eyed red-heads, he’s say so, rather than opening his boundaries just enough to include only whites.
Look at it as a cultural thing, maybe. Yes, some white people don’t even consider non-whites as sex partners. And some African-Americans don’t even consider whites as sex partners. And some Asians don’t even consider non-Asians (or even non-Koreans or non-Japanese) as sex partners. You’re attracted to what you grew up with.
I find the idea of eating horse disgusting. The French don’t. I find the idea of defecating into a hole in the ground over which I have to squat disgusting. People in third-world countries don’t. I find blood pudding disgusting. The English don’t. People have different tastes. I can’t fault anyone for their taste, even if it looks discriminatory. We’re not talking about a job here. We’re talking about sharing an encounter. As long as those same people don’t try to prevent those who do find someone of a different race attractive from being with that person, then it’s none of my business. No one is being denied a livelihood or a constitutional right here. Just an opportunity at having a good time with someone, which is not, incidentally, a right.
Actually, quite a few Indians have green, red hair is a little rarer though. But in any case, I would find it absurd if someone said that they would only date people with green eyes and red hair. If their perfect guy game along but he had blue eyes, they would reject him? Doubtful. But let’s say this person did. I suppose we can say he’s prejudiced against non-green eyed people. In the case of someone who refuses to date Indians, that person is prejudiced against Indians.
I think we’re having a semantic difference hear. Generally, I use the term racism with the connotation of power and opression. Since someone rejecting me does not really opress me, I would use the term prejudiced for this situation. However, using your definition, which is probably the more correct one, than, yes I agree this is a racist attitude.
On the other hand, I just usually assume that when someone rejects me because of my race, it’s because they feel intimidated by me, rather than feeling superior to me.
I’m curious. Could this have happened because as you got older you were able to drop pre-conceived notions and expand your horizons? Or do you feel this is something different?
I would agree that nobody should sweat any type of rejection. However, these guys are still prejudiced. The difference is that for you they are prejudiced against you for your weight, and some men are prejudiced against me for my race.
this is not a heterosexist assumption on how gay people should be like.
It is an expression of hope, that any minority will not repeat the behaviour expressed towards them.
You can’t help your sexual orientation, you’re born with it. Likewise you can’t help the colour of your skin, you’re born with it.
Having been at the receiving end of bigotry, would hopefully deter you from behaving in the exact same way, because you know what it feels like
hate is an emotion that hurts the hater more than the hated.
That’s not, unfortunately, the way human nature works, and there are countless examples of the principle to illustrate it. The African-American/Korean problems of the early 90s. Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs. Hell, there are racial problems within the African-American community: light-skinned black versus dark-skinned blacks, interracial dating versus dating within your race (with the attendant complexities of differing attitudes toward black men dating white women and black women dating white men), “whitey wannabes” (i.e., black teens who actually study and do well in school hoping to enter the working world) versus gangstas.
Humanity doesn’t need the Christian Satan. We do just fine all by ourselves, regardless of past experience.
