Doesn’t it also have to do with the scientific classifications of the human species - Caucasian, Asian, and (IIRC) Negroid? I don’t believe “Oriental” was ever a scientific classification.
Esprix
even sven, I hope you read my post. My whole point was that I never meant to offend, but was apparently behind the curve on what is allegedly offensive. I had ONE experience with the word, and talked about it, and now I might be characterized as an insensitive jerk who goes around purposely pissing people off? Whatever.
Thanks DRY, I needed that! The worst part of it was the kid was so young- ah, the fervor of youth.
I ordinarily don’t care for “PC” distinctions, but I remember when Michael Jackson came under a huge amount of fire for a song which used the term “kike.” THAT I understood- why revive such a terrible slur that had almost passed out of the popular lexicon?
Personally I prefer the stereotype of “always fleeing big giant monsters attacking Tokyo,” but I probably just watch too much TNT. 
As a wise woman once told me, PC should stand for Plain Courtesy.
Esprix
I’m from Southeast Asia, and I’ve NEVER objected to being called an Oriental.
In fact, when referring to people from the “Orient,” I prefer that term. It’s much more accurate than “Asia,” which encompasses the so-called “Middle East” as well.
It is not an inherently derogatory term. “Oriental” simply indicates one’s geographic origin. It’s not an entirely satisfactory term, but it’s far more accurate than being called “Asian.”
Well, that’s a big part of it. I had a chance to talk to Mrs. Kunilou a little more about this. Being Midwesterners, we’re a little slow on the changes that go through the Asian-American community (particularly on the West Coast), but the way Mrs. Kunilou explained it, the term “Oriental” has passed out of style, and using it brings back the stereotypical images that I refered to in my original post.
However, the older members of the community remember being called Chinks, Nips and worse, and that “Oriental” was a term people used when they were trying to be polite. Hence, they are less likely to take offense to the term than younger people, who see the term Oriental as a relic of worse times in the past.
Similar sensitivities were at work in the 60s, where the older members of the African-American commmunity were less likely to be offended by the terms Colored or Negro, while younger people found the terms patronizing.
And Espirix, I remember seeing a textbook from the 40s that refered to the races as “Caucasoid”, “Negroid”, and “Mongoloid” – a term which was also unfortunately attached to Down’s Syndrome and one which can be guaranteed to offend.
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Sorry I misspelled “speech” in thread title.
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Glad a number of people including some ethnically-East-Asians agree that “Oriental” can be more specific than “Asian”.
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I’m surprised that some were offended to be called “Oriental”, instead wanting to be called “American”. Isn’t it clear that since one’s citizenship is not tatooed across one’s forehead, that a term like “Oriental” has to be a term describing ethnicity/ancestry and not citizenship?
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There are times when you want to describe a third person to a second person. Does anyone here claim this is inherently bigoted? Assuming not, how would a person politely describe a member of the following ethnic groups assuming:
a. You didn’t know enough…what, cultural anthropology, to know the correct term,
b. You realize they are not of ethnically African origin:
Melanesians /Fijian
Papuan
Australian aboriginal
…<insert various other Indian ethnic groups here… I am not an anthropologist, so I may get them wrong, but I think>
Telegu’s and Tamil’s may be pretty dark skinned.
My point is that one can be of an ethnic group that has very dark skin and not be from Africa. How do you describe this?
This is probably the third or fourth thread I have seen where someone was whining that they are not allowed to use the term they grew up with for a specific minority group, and are screaming that the change is an example of rampant P.C.ism. It isn’t. I present to you [drumroll] SuaSponte’s Language Laws* [/drumroll]
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The denotations of a word rarely change. The connotations, however, often change quickly. Take the word “colored”. Nothing is inherently wrong with the word. However, the word accumulated too much baggage over the years, likely a result of too many Bull Connor-like pronouncements that “the colored man is lazy and shiftless”, etc. The connection of the word “colored” to various insults, etc., became too strong, so the word fell into disfavor and is now mildly insulting.
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The process of words used to describe minorities falling out of favor is not a recent PC phenomena. “Colored”, mentioned above, was once the term used by progressives, who coined a new word to get away from the bad connotations that had attached to Negro. “Oriental” is a descendant of the word “Chinaman”, which originally had no negative connotations. Both colored and Chinaman fell into disfavor decades before the term “Politically Correct” was coined.
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Members of the minority group in question have the absolute right to determine which terms are appropriate and which aren’t. In other words, if members of a minority group find a term offensive, it is. I don’t understand why some people can’t get this.
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The fact that you don’t intend to offend does not mean that you didn’t offend. “But Sua”, you say, “I know what’s going on inside my head. I don’t mean to offend when I say [insert term]. So it’s not offensive when I say it.” To put it politely - bulls–t. People can’t look inside your head. They can only hear the words you say, and judge them accordingly. If I walk down the hall to my black co-worker’s office and say, with the best of intentions, “So how was work today, nigger?”, I will get fired, and rightfully so. I can’t on my own, change the connotation of a word.
Sua
*Patents pending. All rights reserved. Slippery when wet.
But Sua…
No really- what we have been saying is that we didn’t notice that “Oriental” had fallen out of favor in the first place! And I sure hope I haven’t insinuated that I consider changing “Oriental” to “Asian” as rampant PC-ism!
And the word “Oriental” is a descendant of the word “Chinaman?” Really? DRY, have you heard about this? You should be offended, I guess.
Don’t react like I’m saying I should be able to use epithets like nigger, spic or chink with impunity, because then you are purposely misunderstanding me and trying to start something that isn’t there.
Also, I notice that most of the posters on this thread who would qualify as either Asian or Oriental (whichever they prefer) haven’t said that Oriental is derogatory, merely that it has passed out of fashion. Isn’t there a difference between this and the argument for the use of the word “nigger?”
Or am I completely off base?
[nitpick] I guess I’m looking for a clarification on this one. While I would go ahead and say that members of an affected group have the absolute right to choose what they want to be called it seems to me you are saying that only people who can be categorized as minorities should enjoy this privilige. Is that what you meant?[/nitpick]
Also I think the gist of this is that pretty much everyone here agrees that if you must refer to someone by racial appearance they certainly would like to use a non-offensive term, many of us have voiced that the terms are changing (in some cases rapidly and inconsistently) and for that reason if no offense is intended shouldn’t the offended party try a little to overlook or to kindly correct the term?
Also, when people cannot agree on a term for themselves then that kind of throws your statement out the window. For example, I have a co-worker who could in his words only accurately be described as an “American of Native African Descent”, but you need to know him to know how he feels about it. He resents the term “African American” as he is a proud American and NOT an African, he thinks “Black” is silly as he is brown. However I have other friends who feel other ways on the matter. I have Lakota Sioux friends who call themselves Lakota and others who call themselves Native Americans when referring to ethnicity. My point is each individual is responsible for being sensitive to other individuals personal feelings to some extent but those who wish to be offended are going to be offended no matter what you do. Those who don’t wish to be offended are going to realize that no one is a psychic and therefore cannot know ahead of time a persons’ individual preference for naming ones background.
So, where does that leave us? I think right back where we bagen. People who are intelligent and sensitive are going to probably end up being happier overall because they will be less likely to give or take offense. Meanwhile there will always be those pissed off people who will either be offensive intentionally or take offense intentionally. Both of those latter two out of stupidity or rudeness, either way will go thorough their lives finding any reason to be miserabe convenient.
[p.s.]
Anyone seen the movie where the policeman is interviewing the elderly couple who witnessed a crime commited by a young (your preferred term for black kid here) and the interviewing officer was asking what he looked like:
Cop: Can you describe him?
Couple: well he…he had curly hair…
Cop: and what color was his hair?
Couple: BLACK!
Cop: Ok, did you see any distinguishimg marks? What color was he?
Couple: Well…he was…well…(looking at each other and at the cop nervously)…he was dark…I don’t see too well…
Cop: Was he black?
Couple: (almosh shouting in relief) Yes! He was black!
Cop: You can say “black”, it’s ok to say “black”.
I always thought that scene did a good job of making light and yet informing about this situation.
[/p.s.]
My girlfriend is Korean. Not Korean-American (yet–still waiting on the INS to get its act together). She uses the terms “Asian” and “Oriental” interchangably. Right around the corner from my apartment, a brand new, Korean-owned grocery store opened up. They call themselves “Lotte Oriental Supermarket.” They carry Chinese and Japanese items as well.
It seems that based on the contention that minority groups are the best ones to determine whether or not a term is offensive, my examples provide at least a little evidence that “Oriental” is not considered offensive.
Unless one wanted to make the argument that Koreans are too stupid to realize they are insulting themselves.
I’m a history major with a focus on China, so this crops up a lot. Generally, we don’t even mess with racially specific terms, but rather use geographic/cultural/ethnic terminology when we have to refer to a particular group. Hence, East Asian, Central Asian, Southeast Asian, South-central Asian (where Ice-T is from); Chinese, Japanese, Hakka, Turkish, Indian, Pakistani, Burmese, blah blah blah.
The problem with words like Asian, Oriental, Black, European, etc, is they imply a specificity where none really exists. There’s a Hakka cat in one of my classes. He was asked by a prof if he was Chinese, and his response was, essentially, “No, fuck you, I’m Hakka.” While he speaks Mandarin, Cantonese, and English fluently, he doesn’t seem to feel any particularly close ethnic affinity with the ABC kids just because he happens to be from the same general part of the globe as their grand/parents.
I always wonder whether East Asian kids include Turks, Semitic peoples, etc, when they refer to “Asians.”
Sorry for the disjointedness of this post… I been at work too long.
Here in Puget Sound we’re even closer via the great circle to Asia than LA or SF, so we have enough variety of immigrants that you don’t have to say “Asian/Pacific Islander.” as if reciting from a census form. It’s not that difficult to tell a Vietnamese from a Korean from a Philippino, and that seems to be the way most of them would prefer it, IF at all necessary, as in “Oh, I don’t remember the name of the gal that cut my hair last time - she looked Vietnamese.”
Four blocks east of my house, snug along the woodsy banks of the Puyallup river, is a neighborhood full of Cambodians, incl. gangbangers; seven block west on Lincoln Hill is Little Vietnam, incl. THEIR gangbangers. These two groups do not feel any kinship as “Asians” or “Orientals” or whatever, ESPECIALLY the gangbangers. Years from now their grandkids will see themselves as homogenized *Americans, and as unrelated to these gangbangers as I am to the Irish street toughs in my background.
*Northwestern Americans, to be exact. My 6th generation Irish-Anerican grandkid and their 3rd generation Cambodian-American grandkids will have more in common than they will with some kid in Texas, whether his ancestors came from Ireland or Cambodia.
Hehe, I was born in HK too but moved to Canada when I was a young lad, lived in white towns (from cities in provinces of Quebec to British Columbia) and I’m fluent in both language. I volunteered in RCAC, most of my friends are white, and gosh damn-it, I love the Queen of England (Canada is part of the British Commonwealth, for some of you who don’t know). I get quite annoyed, like your wife, when people (I don’t know if you encounter this unless you in the shoes of a ‘coloured’ person, some caucasian, young or old, while waiting for a but, a white person would start talking to you, not being offensive, but stereotyping you) still label me as Asia or Asian-Canadian, even though I don’t dress like the recently landed ones nor can I speak, read or write in chinese. What’s worse is that when someone actually tells you and say you’re not a true Canadian. What da heck does that mean!?!?!? Do I have to be born on this land and have family history of white skin pigments?
On the other hand, I guess I’m cool with it if it’s for something like Census or use it as an explanation for a sociological theory (you know, Canada is based on cultural-mosaic).
Sheesh!
jovius
To me, it has always seemed that the people who say oriental are the same ones who say colored, in the same contexts and usages - not necessarily with malice, or evidence of any prejudice, mostly just a carryover from their generation. I’m offended only if the context is offensive.
My qualifications? I’m also half Japanese, half Chinese. Right on, Dry!
Agreed. And what was so damned important about Tokyo, anyway? You’d think it’s the center of the earth or something! 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by JubilationTCornpone *
**
Said far more succintly than I did. Thank you. One slight nitpick, though–I’ve heard arguments both ways with respect to “Oriental” being more (or less) accurate than “Asian”. I’d say that one can be debated either way. But again, I question if it’s inherently (or for that matter, explicitly or implicitly) a derogatory term. My opinion, no. Which is why I understand Sua Sponte’s points, but don’t feel they apply here.
I agree 100% with both the Asian and African American characterizations. I know that “Oriental” was more commonly used than “Asian” when I was growing up. I also recall “Colored” being perfectly acceptable, and “Negro” similarly. Heck, I preferred using “Colored” to “Negro” when I was young because I was uncomfortably aware that “Negro” sounded like the epithet “Nigger”. (I do recall “Colored” as being outmoded fairly early in my life, though)
I’ve never heard that. Then again, I’m not offended by “Chinaman”, though I’d consider that term to be somewhat “ignorant” but not “offensive” (if that makes any sense)
As to the rest of your post, EJsGirl, once again, I agree completely. Most Asians/Orientals my age do not take offense. They may have a preference (and again, if EXPLICITLY stated, it should of course be honored).
Again, very well put–and far more succintly than I did. Good job!
Well, neither do we here in California. And no, it’s not that hard to tell a Vietnamese from a Korean or Filipino (sorry to nit pick, but being half Filipino, the spelling “Philippino” just grates on my nerves), or Chinese, or Japanese. People generally can tell around here what person is which ethnicity.
All I will say to this is, that I DO say I am american. BUT when specifying myself I use Filipino-American. Why? Because people insist on labels. Like “What are you?” “American” “No, I mean what ethnicity are you”. You probably dont get that because people generally assume “American” to be white (If you dont believe me, i can ask all of my friends in school who came to the US from Mexico, as well as relatives from the Philippines). Other countries tend to percieve “American” as white. And yes, I would call you German-American if specifying your ethnicity, just like my mom’s relatives are German-American and Dutch-American.
To me, this means denying my heritage, telling me to bury it and not recognize it (i am talking both sides of mine, the European ones and the Filipino). Why should I be blind to ethnicity? I LIKE to recognize other people’s ethnicity. Does being blind to it also mean that we shouldnt do ethnic festivals? After all, if people display their ancestry that means they arent being blind to it.
NOTE: I DO NOT go around saying “I’m Filipino-american” all the time. it is only when asked what my ethnicity is, or when i’m asked if i’m Mexican that I say that. I do say American first, but people being people generally ask further and want to know my ethnicity. You can call me American if you like, but when I refer to my ethnicity, you shouldnt get upset (Does that offend you? Why?)
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You probably dont get that because people generally assume “American” to be white
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Actually, in my experience, being white doesn’t mean you don’t get asked what you are. People usually ask what I am, or I’ll ask what they are, and I’ll say Irish even though I’ve never been to Ireland, and they’ll say Lithuanian or Italian or what have you…Our questions come more out of pride in our roots and general curiosity.
On the term Oriental… How do people who actually live in the far east feel about this? I would assume that they’d rather be identified by their nation, or their ancestoral descent, rather than 'that big ‘ol land-mass.’ The term Asian is even more of a generalization…really, Asians are everyone from Tel Aviv to Vladivostok…that’s an egregious oversimplification.
Also, African-American is a troublesome term. Mostly because people who use it aren’t thinking “that person is of african descent and therefore I should say this…” they’re thinking “that person is black, and I should say this…” The trouble is that there are non-african blacks, from Haiti, Cape Verde, South America, and other places.
While black and oriental are certainly outmoded, the terms Asian and African-American are just another generalization, White is silly, and don’t get me started on how many times I’ve had to say that I’m speaking of Indians from *India * and shouldn’t be chided for using an offensive term =)
Labels suck. Really.
I apologize for my lapse - I forgot that an “F” instead of a “Ph” is correct when describing a national as opposed to the nation. When people use it in conversation, do you stop them and ask them how they’d spell it? And are you getting omy case as a Asian vs. white guy, or a Californian vs. Washingtonian? I didn’t say were were smarter than you up here (and certainly not better spellers), just that we’re closer to Asia by the great circle route.
What would grate on MY nerves, if I or my ancestors came from the Phillipines, would be that my country was still named after a 16th century Spanish king who lived in a dreary palace on a slag heap outside Madrid and who tortured and burned relgious dissenters. To him you guys were just a row of splotches on a map. If you’re so proud, why don’t you come up with your own name for yourselves? I promise you I will use it.