'Asian' replacing 'Oriental' in P.C. speach?

Great Debates
81

I am arguing this point because there are people in asia who are not of the same race as Mrs. Kunilou. I have been specifically told by some of those people that they feel belittled and ignored by america when they hear americans calling Mrs. Kunilou’s race ‘asian’. Personally, I am only offended by the fact that no one seems to understand what I’m saying. I think it’s fairly obvious. I was using SE asian but it was pointed out that China isn’t very S, so I have edited to E&SE asian. I know not everyone in that area is of the same race and so I am still not happy with this term, but it’s the best I’ve heard so far. I am not suggesting that we ignore the fact that this race doesn’t want to be called ‘oriental’ anymore. I am just saying that ‘asian’ is a bad and non-PC alternative.

I think that Kimstu and I agree for the most part. We have some different opinions on the degree of various problems but I think we agree on what is a problem and what is not. Kimstu actually seems to have thought this through much more thoroughly than I have. I just have had the priviledge of knowing quite a few slavic asians, arab asians, and jewish asians, as well as a large number of E&SE asian asians. This gives me more motivation to support their point of view.

I am an american. I am from the United States. I am also white. I am also male. I am also german/french/lithuanian/native-american/welsh. I am also a reductive materialist. I am also a city boy. I am also a doper. These terms all describe different things about me.

I submit that asia is a geographic area populated for generations by people of several different races all of whom are asian.

82

VileOrb, you’re really treading on dangerous ground here.

The definition of race is tricky enough, and best left to someone besides me. It is generally agreed that it’s not strictly biological, and there are no clear dividing lines as to where physical characteristics change from one group to another.

If I remember any of my anthropology, the races were originally named after geographical locations. Caucasian was supposedly from the Caucasus Mountains, Negroid from the Niger River region, Mongoloid from Mongolia. Later on, a fourth race Amerind (from America, naturally) was added.

It was an artificial construct then, and it still is.

While trying to find a more learned response to your question, I found a proposal for dividing the U.S. into different countries for each race. I won’t post a link because I was offended by it, but if you want to do a search, try the name Richard McCullough. Here is how he defined the races for the purposes of his proposal:

Nordish, including Alpine, Dinaric and Ladogan

Congoid – from sub-Sahara Africa

Hispanic, including Mexican/Central/South American Indians and Mestizos

Amerindian

East Asian, including northeast and southeast Asian

Meteranid (I may have misspelled this)-Armenid – all Caucasians not Nordic, includiing Indic, Dravidic, Irano-Afghan, Turanid, Orientalid, Armeni and other “part-Caucasian racially mixed persons. . .that would not fit well into other primary racial groupings.”

Native Pacific Islanders

By my count, that’s about 19 different “races” and the best he can come up with for the particular area we’re discussing is “Northeast/Southeast Asian.”

83

hmmm, I see that racial identification is an invitation for future discrimination. And, I would, for the most part, agree to stop identifying races at all even though it would mean a little bit of awkwardness in communication. “Mr. Police Officer! I was just robbed by three people. One looked roughly like Mark Maguire but younger, shorter and fatter. One looked kinda like Roberto Alomar, except stockier and with facial hair. The last looked like Shaquille O’Neal only a lot smaller and female.” I can live with that with very little argument. However, I think that when people with the racial characteristics commonly displayed by people from the cultures of E&SE asia want to use the word ‘asian’ to describe their group. I feel that the other asians have every right to complain.

So, I agree that my intent to come up with non-offensive names for races was treading on dangerous gound and I am willing to abandon it. However, I am not going to abandon my contention that many asians have every right to be offended by the use of the word ‘asian’ to describe a particular racial group that doesn’t include them.

84

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Do you have the same problem with “African” and “European”?

I do not believe that Russians in general are insulted by East Asians being called simply “Asians”. Some Russians may feel that way, but I know that many feel that calling Russians “Asian” is itself an insult. The rest of Eastern Europe certainly does; they want to be considered Europeans (Slavenka Drakulic’s “Cafe Europa” deals with this issue).

85

A lot of people of East Asian descent seem to strongly prefer “Asian-American” to “Oriental” on the grounds that “Oriental” is a patronizing throwback to the era when all yellow-skinned, straight-black-haired, shortish/skinny people were painted with the same crude brush. But…

It seems to me that using the single category “Asian-American” to decribe people from China, Japan, Korea, etc. is itself a culturally benighted Americanism. It is throwing diverse peoples and cultures into the same homogeneous category. In fact, isn’t “Asian-American” guilty of the same substantive sins as “Oriental”, the only difference being that it is a different word and has the sanction of many former “Orientals”?
Example: In my experience living and working extensively with people of both Japanese and Vietnamese descent, these two groups, who would both be labeled “Asian-American”, are as different culturally as, say, Irish and Sicilians. And in the same way that some prejudiced Irish would resent being lumped in with swarthy, emotional Sicilians, native-born Vietnamese often have a considerable enmity towards Japanese, dating from the Japanese occupation of Vietnam in World War II. The same could be said for Koreans vs. Japanese, Japanese vs. Chinese, etc. And it’s not just prejudice that separates the Asian groups - there are bona fide cultural differences which a term like “Asian-American” completely obliterates.

To sum up, my own English-Sicilian-Irish-German-American opinion is that “Asian-American” is just as flawed as “Oriental”, for the same exact reasons. It’s a different word for the same silly idea.

86

I think I may be the only person who understands what you’re saying. I’m Indian, and if (hypothetically) I was to refer to myself as ‘Asian’, I’d probably get “Oh, you don’t look Asian”. I think the problem is not with the E&SE Asians wanting to describe themselves as Asian, but with the fact that over the years, most of the Asians in America have been E&SE asians. So to some (most?) Americans, the word Asian will mean E&SE asian. Someone from the UK brought up the point that there, Asian means Indian/Pakistani, for the same reasons. But whatever the reason for this, I myself do feel a little left out (but I wouldn’t say offended) when the word Asian is used to describe E&SE asians, although it is entirely accurate.

S.

87

Yea!! It seems I have finally spoken clearly enough to be understood.

I notice that many E&SE Asians don’t mind being called ‘oriental’ I compare that to the many Russians who don’t mind being left out of the ‘asian’ category. Just becuase some poeple don’t mind doesn’t mean it’s OK.

I don’t use European or African to denote race, does anyone? There are some who use African-American. I don’t.

88

Do people really deny that Indians or other South Asians are in fact “Asian”? I’ve never heard anyone say such a thing, but I can believe that some people would – there are a lot of stupid people in the world, after all. I do know that the campus Asian student organization is made up of roughly equal parts South Asian (mostly Indian and Nepali) and East Asian (mostly Japanese and Korean). As I am one of the club’s non-Asian members I have had plenty of opportunity to see that all of the Asian members are perfectly happy to be called Asian and I don’t think anyone has ever suggested that the South Asian students aren’t really Asian because they aren’t East Asian.

It’s not just that there are many Russians who don’t mind not being called Asian, it’s that there are many Russians who would be offended to be called Asian.

The problem with denoting race is that race is an aritificial construct. There are no good labels for races because there is no good definition for what a race is. Collunsbury can explain this better than I, but race simply does not exist in any real scientific sense.

Of course, race is very important socially no matter how worthless it is scientifically. So consider the peoples of East and Southeast Asia members of a certain race if you like. But “Oriental” is not a better or more accurate term for them than “Asian” (and I personally have not seen any evidence that people actually use the word “Asian” to refer exclusively to the peoples of East and Southeast Asia). They may not be the only people in Asia, but they sure as heck aren’t the only people in the Orient either. “The Orient” is a vague term that has been used to refer to not only all of Asia but Eastern Europe and the Middle East as well. So if it’s not accurate and if many of the people who it is used to refer to find it offensive, then what reason is there to use the term?

89

So, if I wanted to compare the average height of people who tend toward yellowish skin, black hair, etc. that dominate the east and southeast of asia and compare that with the people of similar genetic makeup who have been in America for two or more generations as a piece of a study on the effects of dietary change on a population, is there a short term for the people I am talking about that wouldn’t offend anyone?

20 years ago I think it would have been fine to say Oriental. I never heard anyone use that term in a context that was clearly describing a race and have it understood to mean anything but the people we have been talking about here. Maybe there was a time when oriental meant something different, but there was a time when it was a clear descriptor of a race. Maybe race is not clearly defined. Maybe there are a lot of mixed race people and so clearly defining a race is a bad idea. BUT, we still talk about races, we have black, and white, and hispanic and no one here, so far, is complaining that we shouldn’t make distinctions between those races. I don’t see a clear line between green and blue, but we can still use those words and argue about it when we get something that is aqua. (Is aqua green or blue? Another Great Debate.) I think an unoffensive word for the race that, for some period of time, was called oriental would be a useful word. I don’t think it would be necessarily racist to use it. I don’t think we have such a word right now.