Ask a muslim

Great Debates
81

Martin,

Thanks for patiently handling everyone’s questions so far. I have several which concern the conflict of the archaeological record with the faith of believers:

  1. How can a religion founded by a man who, as an astute merchant, led raids on competing caravans and slayed and robbed their members, be called peaceful? Also, the Koran may advocate protecting Christians and Jews, but it does, indisputably recommend killing pagans who refuse to convert. How can that be reconciled with peace?

(Note, this should not turn into a “Well, the Jews sacked Canaan” sort of thing. In fact, this shows an irreconcilable difference between Islam and many forms of Christianity. It was settled by Saint Augustine in his Confessiones that God had one sort of morals for before Christ’s coming and one sort for after, so what the Jews did was fine but any mass slaying in the name of God after AD 1 is not.)

  1. What do you think of the affair of the satanic verses, attested to by Muslim sources, that show that Islam either grew out of or made concessions to polytheism?

  2. Along the same lines: What do you think of the opinion held by many archaeologists of the Arabian peninsula of the time that Muhammad merely choose one of the 200+ idols of Mecca to emphasise and that the religion was never wholly monotheist during Muhammad’s time.

  3. How do Muslims rationalise veneration of the black stone in the Ka’aba, which was a pagan object of worship for centuries before Muhammad?

UnuMondo

82

I don’t know that it’s in the Qu’ran but it is in the Hadiths.
Qu’ran is Muhammad quoting God. The Hadiths are various people who lived with or near Muhammad quoting him, sometimes his wives. In this, Hadith is WAY more accurate than, say, all that red text in some versions of the Bible. In that what Muhammad did was supposed to be a good thing, you’re supposed to take him for an example. Some Hadiths are considered more authentic than others. You can pretty much pick and choose.

I’m not a convert!- just the husband.

83

Nope, I was me that time. I am also me now.

My, that sounded odd…

84

Oops. I misunderstood what you were referring to. Okay, to clarify, he was me at the time you referred to, but I have been me ever since and will be me from now on.

…where’s Descartes when we need him…

85

OK, so, HennaDancer, you are married to a convert to Islam, the convert formerly believing, loosely, in various forms of Christianity and paganism.

Would you care to answer some questions as spouse of a convert? You should, of course, feel free to ignore any or all of my questions if you want. No answer to this post is necessary.

When did martin convert: Pre-marriage? During courtship? During marriage? After kids?

I guess you knew martin was a searcher. Did martin’s resolution in Islam surprise you? (I’ll assume this is the end of the search for the sake of this thread.) Did this challenge your marriage?

What are your beliefs? Are they radically different than his? How will you resolve that with your children? Does Islam have any requirements for Muslim parent(s) to raise their children in the faith of Islam?

By the way, if my questions make incorrect assumptions, please feel free to correct those assumptions.

86

Martin converted about five months ago. We’ll have our seventh wedding anniversary this May and our kids (boys) are 7 months and 4 years old.

It’s still new and we’re still working it out. We have a lot of life issues other than this to deal with so now is a time of change in many ways. I don’t really want to get into unresolved personal issues here. I think it’s a good faith and has much to recommend it. I think Martin is taking it in a very reasonable light, in fact, the light in which it is meant to be taken. One of the things Islam is big on is figuring it out for yourself. You are told to ask questions and to discuss and wonder about things. He is talking to lots of people and finding his own way. He is still mostly the same guy.

Muslims are supposed to raise their kids in Islam. We’re still working out the details, but we both believe it’s very important for the kids to decide religious matters for themselves and follow something because they believe in it, not because it’s what we do. My Mom is strongly Christian and she’s teaching the older one Baby Jesus stories and sings hymns at him to put him to sleep while we’re there. I’m sort of deist-animist-pagan. I find God in dancing and in creating Art. I thank the dead animal every time I eat meat. I am going to teach my son my traditions and Martin will teach him his and my Mom will teach him hers and hopefully he will find that one is true for him. Or not. So long as they are good men, we think that any god/goddess/God/Allah/Celestial Grand Poobah should not have a problem with them.

87

Not to throw yet another religion into the mix or anything, but this is the most Enlightened thing I’ve heard in a long while. :slight_smile:

88

HennaDancer, thanks for the reply. Have fun handling your first “So who’s right?” question from your oldest. I’ve had to handle it. Sounds like you might be more comfortable with it than I was. Peace.

89

Okey-dokey…

1)The raids or “ghazu” that you are referring to were nearly the Arabic national sport in that century. They were how any tribe made ends meet in the lean times. If these lean times are caused by a forced migration to escape a massacre, sanctions threatened to your neighbors if they dare trade with you, and exclusion from the largest trading city in the area, the targets of your raids are obvious. The raids had nothing to do with Muhammad having been a merchant, they had everything to do with the survival of your refugee people until they become strong enough to stand up on their own and demand respect.

As for the "slaughter"I have no records of the body count at my fingertips. Ghazu was traditionally less commonly fatal than actual warfare.

As for comparisons to St. Augustine, I don’s tend to take as authorities any Cristian Saints. Guess I’m just funny like that. Besides. Augustine’s pronouncements did nothing to stop centuries of Christian atrocities. Crusades against Islam, Cathar heretics, Slavic pagans, native americans, Hindus, Muslims in the Balkans, most everyone in Africa who was in the way. All justified by Biblical verses and sanctioned by religious authorities.

Kinda like fatwas, don’tcha think?

I think the Qur’anic verses so lovingly quoted by our enemies are debatable. Once again I say, they refer to the Pagans who ruled Mecca, killed their inconvenient daughters, treated their women like slaves, their slaves like dogs, cheated the pilgrims who came to the city, charged over 150% interest on loans, and killed those converts they could get away with, mostly women and slaves, and did everything they could to ensure that those who had escaped wouldn’t survive.

Be so kind as to read my previous posts on context before you declare anything about my faith “indisputable”.

  1. The much beloved by evangelists, “Satanic Verses” are questionable at best. They only appear briefly in two histories written decades after the death of Muhammad and not in any of the dozens of earlier ones. Being so tenuous in authenticity, they show nothing.

3&4) The Kaaba and it’s environs were constructed by Ishmael, Hagar, and Abraham in honor of The One. The old Testament even recounts their being in Arabia. It will take me a bit to dig up the cites.

In the following centuries, Arabia fell into Idolotry, adding 350 or so idols to the original temple. At some point, the Black Stone was sent as a sign from Allah and installed there…

What’s next?

The Moon-God theory?

Pedophilia accusations?

Don’t waste my time with this scripted by the missionaries drek.

Martin

90

Peace Martin. Former Muslim here (current Atheist). We’re about two pages in to this already and you never addressed the first couple of posters who wanted you to explain how you could believe in a book that has directions for killing unbelievers and waging war. I think their quotes from the Koran is an important topic to address. This is one (only one) of the reasons I became an atheist and I’m sure a big reason for others also. Peace.

91

Why are non-Muslims not allowed in Mecca? (Or am I mistaken on that?)

92

In at least two posts thus far I’ve adressed the subject of historical context. The Quran does not advocate war on all unbelievers, and the instructions for war actually limit atrocities.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/war.htm

Sorry if I don’t write out the whole thing, but I believe this site does a fine job of conveying the truth of the matter.

I am not going to go through quote by quote, I have a life, and as I believe them to have simply cut and pasted them from some Apologetics of Missionary website. There are hundreds of them out there promoting a very narrow view of Islam, suited to the attacks they wish people to make.

In effect, I did answer the posts in the best way possible. I could cut and paste from the above link with as many verses, supporting hadiths and information about context, but I’ll let it speak for itself.

Sorry if I’m not a terrorist extremist…

Martin

93

I believe you are right. I dom’t thimk thst non-muslims are allowed im Mecca. Perhaps it is only during the Hajj month, when it is full of pilgrims. As for why, something about protecting the sanctity of the Holiest of places in Islam. I’ll look into it.

Martin

94

Am I a lousy typer or what?

Martin

95

No problem,

First, I don’t attend the same masjid every time. for the sake of simplicity, I’ll use one as an example.

On an average friday at the Muhammad Islamic Center approximately 75 brothers might show up. Of those 75, perhaps 30 are converts.

Of those 30, 25 might be African-American, 4 of Hispanic, and lastly, yours truly.

The remaining 45 are a varying mix of Pakistanis, Africans, Arabs from all over, North Africans, Malaysians, Balkans, and Turks.

This masjid has a very American flavor. It is independant of any foreign money, (Saudi oil money), and is affiliated with Warith Deen Muhammad, son of Elija Muhammad. When it was first founded, it was the Muhammad Mosque of Islam #I forget, a Nation of Islam joint. It was one of the masjids that stayed with W.D. Muhammad after he switched to mainstream Islam, and stayed when Farrakhan reformed The NOI. Surprisingly, there is little overt racial agenda. Certainly little foreign politacal agenda, either.

A muslim should learn Arabic as soon as possible. It is the duty of every muslim to read the Quran in the original Arabic. You don’t have to learn before conversion. I need to get my butt to Arabic lessons on Sundays. Most masjids offer them for free, even to visitors.

Imam Qasim is the leader of the masjid. There is also a board of directors. I am not sure what official qualifications he might have, I should ask one day. Different masjids have dirfferent ideas of what they are looking for. A couple of towns away, at Masjid Madina, a much larger place almost entirely populated by immigrants, their Imam is Sheikh Hadri from Ghana. Sheikh Hadri is a graduate from Al-Azhar university in Egypt, the defininative school for Sunni Islamic Law. If I need to ask anything technical, I’ll go to him.

I think most of the Imams I know have outside jobs. Except for Sheikh Hadri. Madina Masjid is large enough to support a full-time paid Imam, while Muhammad Islamic Center is definitely struggling.

The fast was actually pretty easy. I am in Connecticut and the days were short, the weather cool to cold, and I was not working in a physically demanding job. Fasting from approximately 4:30 to 4:30 wasn’t too much of a burden. I did get out of the habit of eating whenever I feel like.

Martin

96

I don’t know how you can say the Koran does not advocate war on unbelievers. The quotes that were posted were directly from the Koran translated into English. As a former Muslim I can tell you these are not misquoted. The Yusuf Ali tranlation (known to be the best English translation) can confirm this.
The link you posted for the website islamfortoday.com/war.htm, only tells of "supposed " quotes of Muhammed (even Muslim scholars will tell you you can’t believe all the Hadiths) and doesn’t address the controversial quotes taken directly from the Koran. By saying you are not going to go “guote by quote” I believe you are ducking an important issue that your first responders wanted you to address. It is obvious so far that you are a very intelligent young man, and I think what many of us are wondering is how you can believe that your God is all knowing and merciful and still believe he revealed such hatred to this last prophet.

97

x-ray vision, I think you’re being a bit unfair. Yes, the quotes from the Qu’ran do seem to advocate warfare and the killing of disbelievers. However, very similar quotes can be found in the Christian Bible, particularly in the Old Testament. The OT God is often portrayed as a god of wrath, and many of his (His?) actions seem to be overreactions- destruction of cities, genocidal warfare, and the like. It is only in the New Testament that the more modern Christian philosophies of peace and forgiveness are even mentioned. But even here there’s violence- Christ states at one point that when he returns he will bring not peace but a sword.

My point is that many of these quotes must be taken in context, and they must be understood as perhaps not exactly a perfect translation. As Martin pointed out, the raids participated in by Muhammad were a part of his culture and his time. It’s not an excuse, but it is a reason. I think of it more like Saul on the road to Damascus- a pretty wretched guy until he saw the light.

All religions, when you get right down to it, have some element of violence at their core. It’s inevitable when so many humans hold such strong beliefs. This is one of the main reasons why I’m an atheist myself. Religion is a tool, but every tool can be a weapon as well.

I’m not sure if your problem is with Islam in particular, or religions in general. I’ll admit, most organized belief systems rub me the wrong way. Christianity as practised in the Middle Ages and early Renaissance in Europe was violent, intolerant, and every bit as extremist as the Muslim terrorists of today. This was the spirit of those times, and while it must never be forgotten or excused, it should be learned from. The end result of humans twisting the teachings of their god(s) to their own purposes will always be violence. Perhaps the Muslim faith is today going through the same unfortunate yet invaluable ‘learning process’. We can only hope for the best. I cannot see the reason to find fault with the teachings of a particular faith; only with how those teachings are used by some its believers.

98

Well, Martin, I was asking these questions because the archaeological record shows that early Islam was much more polytheistic than Muslims hold. While some Christian missionaries are using the “moon-god theory”, they are doing so only because archaeology has uncovered that quite probably Allah was in the beginning only emphasised by Muhammad while the rest of the idols continued to be worshipped.

The discrepancy between faith and archaeology is a topic that should be discussed for any religion. If this was a “Ask the Jew” or “Ask the Christian” thread, I’d be asking the same sort of questions. Your overreaction on this issue disappoints me.

UnuMondo

99

Ratty, saying that quotes such as:
Make war on them until idolatry does not exist any longer and Allah’s religion reigns universally.

and

**Fight the unbelievers in your surroundings, and let them find harshness in you.**
are taken out of context is what is being unfair, not me. If that could be taken out of context, please explain.
Also, saying that there are similar quotes in other religions means nothing to me. I am not defending any other religion. Let's talk about what the Koran says and not how it is comparative to any other religion's books.
100

In the Grand Doper Tradition…

Cite your sources.

You claim that archeology has uncovered evidence to back up a few of your claims. Give more details.

I have decided to have a stab at a point-by-point regarding the verses so lovingly tossed into some earlier posts. This will take some time as I will actually be doing research, and each ayat will get it’s own post.

Be patient, “mi petas”

Martin

P.S. My Esperanto was almost totally obliterated by a couple years of workplace Spanglish. If I didn’t say “My dear” above, please correct me. Esperanto is on the list of must-learn languages, right after Arabic an Turkish. I still like the idea and see a need for it as a language of diplomacy that may help in international discourse.

Do you know any good online tutorials for Esperanto?