Ask a muslim

Great Debates
101

Hi folks,

Since I brought it up, I should explain for those who haven’t heard.

Many Christian missionaries like to advance the theory that Allah was originally the name of a moon god worshipped by the Pagan Arabs.

Please take note of the emphasis on “originally”.

This effort is hoped to have success in shaking the faith of any nominal muslim disinclined to crack a frikkin’ book on their own.

Yes, there is evidence of a moon god worshipped by many in what is now called the Middle East. OK.

There is also some evidence that in Arabia, the name Allah was used to refer to the moon god, called Sin in some neighboring countries. Ok, maybe.

This is weakened by examination of the etymology of Allah. In Arabic, “Allah” is a contraction of “Al” and “Ilah”, meaning "the"and “god”, respectively. The same applies th the Hebrew and Aramaic roots of “El” and “Eloah”, with “im” added as a plural to convey a sense of majesty. In Aramaic, the language of Jesus, “Eloah” or “Allaha” are considered likely pronounciations for the One God of the Jews.

I could probably find cites for that last statement, if nits must be picked

It is known that the high god of the Kaaba was called Allah. Over the millennia since Abraham and Ishmael, (Incidentally, I entertain some vague notions of those stories being at least partly allegorical), the Arabs associated all sorts of things in worship with, or instead of Allah. Eventually they added features to the One and Formless, hiving Allah a lunar aspect and the form of a man. People sometimes need to do this so they can have some image in their minds of what they are worshipping.

Islam, in the form of Muhammad’s Revelatory experiences, returned as a corrective to this. Allah reminded the Arabs of their original religion and urged them to abandon false forms of worship. As in the times of Jesus, formal religion had become more of a business based upon spectacle than a means of worship and communion. Both great Prophets brought a Message of simple devotion and charity.
Martin

102

Why do you blame any criticism of Islam on “Christian Missionaries”?

103

Ok, Here goes.

Astaghfirullah if I screw this up.

Let’s start where Brent started…

“Those who disbelieve (in Allah) among the ‘People of the Book’ (Jews and Christians) and among the Polytheists, will be in hell-fire, to dwell therein - for aye”. (Qur’an - 98:6)

Am I the only one who notices that not all People of the Book and Polytheists are condemned, only those among them who reject faith?

For what it’s worth, Yusuf Ali translates the whole Surah like this:

In the name of God,
Most Gracious, Most Merciful

98:1 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,-
98:2 An apostle from God, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:
98:3 Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.
98:4 Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.
98:5 And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship God, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
98:6 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
98:7 Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.
98:8 Their reward is with God: Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; God well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.
His commentary on the quoted sixth ayah:

“To be given the faculty of discrimination between right and wrong, and then reject truth and right, is the worst folly which a creature with will can commit. it must necessarily bring it’s own punishment, whether the creature calls himself one of the children of Abraham, or one of the redeemed of Christ, or whether he goes by the pure light of nature and reason as a Pagan. Honour in the sight of Allah is not due to race or professions of faith, but to sincere and rightous conduct, (49:13)”

The ayah quoted at the end id this:

"49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). "

Make of it what you will.

I can understand that some may be upset by the comcept of anyone being punished for disbelief.

Martin

104
105

Yes?

106

Not any, just one or two particularly shrill and oft flogged attempts.

Why do you base a generalization on a few pposts? Hardly scientifically valid as a statistical model:D

Martin

107

No seriously, throught this thread, if someone posts a negative comment, you either refuse to respond, or blame it on “Christians”. Why is that?

108

The next is more fun.

Brent’s quote:

“Wage War on the ‘People of the Book’, who do not accept the religion of Islam” (Qur’an - 9:29)

Puzzling.

Yusuf Ali:

“9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with w illing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

Not even close. All translations that I can find, whether online or on my shelves, makes me wonder where Mr. Lumpkin got this. We could pick apart the real verse if anyone insists. Suffice it to say that it refers to those who lived as Christians and Jews in Madina and violated treaty and oath, which is forbidden by Allah, of mutual protection. This is illustrated in the preceding verse, 9:14

Again…Brent’s quote:

“Fight against them (the Jews and Christians)! Allah shall punish them AT YOUR HAND”!! (Qur’an 9:14)

Jusuf Ali:

9:12 But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

9:13 Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Apostle, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

9:14 Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

9:15 And still the indignation of their hearts. For God will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and God is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

9:16 Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though God did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except God, His Apostle, and the (community of) Believers? But God is well- acquainted w ith (all) that ye do.
Note the incomplete quote, added paranthetical text and capitalization, all intended by someone to lead an unsuspecting and careless reader to miss the point.

Did I mention that Arabic has no capitalization?..

I took the liberty of quoting the two verses on either side. I hope this will provide…CONTEXT, and help lead you to the point being made by the chapter. I will spare you the commentary by Brother Yusuf, except to convey that it makes clear just what I am trying to say.

If I may summarize this section of the chapter to convey my understanding.

(Allah)
“Hey, ya know those people who swore an oath and made a treaty with you before selling you out, attacking you, and helping to kill lots of you? If you fight them, I’ll be with you. We’ll take 'em out and you won’t need to be bummed out about it. By the way, don’t trust this bunch in the future, they’ve proven themselves to be more than a bit shady”

Should I go on?

Sure!

Martin

109

Not sure what to say to you that hasn’t already been said…

As for ignoring, this thread is up to 95 posts or so. I am trying to respond to the ones I can the quickest. My current project ids to give BrentLumpkin and those who insisted their point-by-point analysis of a post from the first page. It is a lot of work, but is turning out to be more fun than I had realized it would be.

Three verses down and two mis-or incomplete quotes so far.

I will respond where I think I can make best use of my limited time. I have a life, a family, and occasionally must sleep. I will ignore what pleases me and respond how I like.

I started this thread to spread some wider knowledge, not to satisfy everybody.

martin

110

I think I might have a new hobby in this alone!

Brent’s quote:

Qur’an (60:4) “Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone.”

Which is a teeeny-weeeny little sliver of the whole verse.

Yusuf Ali:

"60:4 There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: “We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides God: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in God and Him alone”: But not when Abraham said to his father: “I will pray for forgiveness for thee, though I have no power (to get) aught on thy behalf from God.” (They prayed): “Our Lord! in Thee do we trust, and to Thee do we turn in repentance: to Thee is (our) Final Goal.”

The asterisks mark out what Brent’s quote seems to be paraphrasing.

Do I even need to comment?

Martin

BrentLumpkin, Where, oh where did you get this?

111

This one’s more accurate, but less complete.

Brent’s quote:

“Those who follow Muhammad are merciless to the unbelievers but kind to each other” (Qur’an 48:29)

Yusuf Ali:

“48:29 Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from God and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.”

I’ll have to consult an Arabic speaker for the full meaning of the word that is being translated as “merciless” or “strong”. The verse describes how the Muslims are to deal with the unbelievers, in this instance, once gain, the Qurayshi rulers of Mecca. t also describes the enemy’s reaction to the sudden and surprising growth in numbers of the Believers at a certain stage.

I must be getting tired. That wasn’t much fun at all.

Martin.

112

Still going…

Brent’s quote:

“Make war on them (non-Muslims) until idolatry does not exist any longer and Allah’s religion reigns universally”. (Qur’an 8:39) (2:193)

Yusuf Ali:

“8:39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.”

And:

"2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression. "

A bit different in tone, yes? No?

8:39 was revealed as a commentary on the Battle of Badr, where a small number of muslims routed a much larger contingent of Meccans

8:38 contains instructions, telling the Muslims what to say to the enemy after the battle:

"8:38 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). "

I understand that none of the verses, even quoted properly, lead few to percieve Islam as pacifistis. It most assuredly is not. The aim of Islam is Peace. The means of war are sometimes necessary. Much of the Qur’an deals with instructions on dealing with a particularly nasty era. There are bits of wisdom to be gained with an open, complete reading of a whole chapter, rather thanquoting fragments of verses trying to make a point to mislead.

martin

113

Have I lost anyone yet?

I am sure some eyes are glazing over with boredom, but x-ray insisted that I answer this. Blame him/her.

Seriously. Should I continue in this vein? Is this helpful or useful for anyone? I hope the oft-repeated point regarding the dangers of quoting out of context is being hammered home.

Am I successful presenting Islam positively, or at least less negatively than some posts here did with their quotes?

Now I sleep.

Martin

114

Hey Martin. Thanks for diligence is this thread. It really is appreciated.

I have a few other questions, I hope you won’t mind tackling them. Thanks.

  1. Other than Ramadan, are there any other imporant religious holidays in the Muslim faith?

  2. I know that the traditional covering for women is worn by most devout Muslims in predominantly Muslim societies. Are there any cultural differences in this dress? And what is this garb called properly in Arabic? Now for the Brothers- is there any traditionally Muslim piece of clothing for men, like maybe the yarmulke for Jewish men, or no?

  3. I love languages, and I’ve had a lot of success teaching myself with only minimal help from teachers or classes. (Although proper pronunciation is difficult for me without someone to imitate.) Do you think Arabic is generally a difficult language to learn for English speakers? I’m seriously considering taking it up.

115

I understand written Arabic (formal) is very different from spoken Arabic. Martin?

116

No problem.

1)The two main Islamic hoiidays, in fact the only official ones are Ramadan and Hajj, and the Eids, or feasts, that end them

Eid ul-Fitr, the Feast of Victory, was either on thursday the 5th, or friday the 6th, depending upon which masjid you listened to.

Eid ul-Adha, the Feast of Sacrifice, will likely coincide with february 12, 2003. This festival, like the rest of the Hajj month, revolves around the stories of Abraham, Ishmael, and Hagar. Ideally, those who can afford to slaughter an animal, usually a sheep or a lamb. 1/3 of the meat goes to charity, another 1/3 goes to your extended family, and you keep the remainder for your own use. The slaughter is in remembrance of Abraham nearly sacrificing his son, who was replaced by a lamb.

2)Aside from a rules of modesty ther are no REQUIRED garments for men. It has been reported that the Prophet always covered his head while at prayer, but this is never declared as obligatory. Many choose to imitate the Prophet to varying degrees, seeking the Blessings thought to result. Many men wear a hat, usually a knit skullcap or small pillbox type as a mark of identity. Some friends of mine do the full robes-and-turban thing. I frequently wear a kufi, the knit skullcap, but I frequently forget or don’t bother. I usually also wear loose-fitting western clothes, (not cowboy gear…)

  1. Il Topo. The distinction to be made is between Classical or Qur’anic Arabic, and the various modern, colloquial dialects. Both have both a written and spoken form. One cannot generalize as to how wide the gap is due to the many modern dialects. Yemeni is considered the modern dialect closest to Classical, while Maghribi, (Western North Africa, Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, etc…) is very different due to loan words and grammar from Tamizig(Berber), and other influences.

It is very important to have a teacher, or at least a competent speaker to assist you when learning Arabic. Many sounds don’t even exist in English and are impossible to describe accurately. I would suggest that you pick up a book just to get a head start on the alphabet. Picking up a recording of Qur’an recitation will help a bit, by absorbtion, with the pronounciation of Classical Arabic…

Martin

117

Also, your local masjid usually has lessons in Quranic Arabic. Just tell them that you are interestedi n learning about Arabic and Islam. If you feel pressured or catch any flak, move on to the next one.

Martin

118

Do I even need to go there?

Most of the verses are requotes of his previous quotes, and are as likely to be incomplete or innacurate.

The 2 Hadiths that started this post, I won’t even get into. I have none of the collections at hand and Hadith science is a ponderous, complicated game. The Hadith database I am familiar with is a word search and I just don’t have the time.

Some of you old-time Dopers, How am I doing? Gimme some feedback.

Martin

119

I’m no old timer, but here’s my opinion nonetheless. You’ve done an excellent job of keeping your promise, which was not to solve ages-old socioreligious questions or provide an apologia for your new faith. Rather, you proposed to provide an honest first-person view of your faith and answer questions to the best of your ability. Although I suspect you got a bit cranky a few days ago, you’ve settled in for the long haul and are doing a commendable job. I’m as gratified by the glimpses into your own personal search for truth and how you’re making your multi-religious family operate with a minimum of hiccups as I am with the doctrinal, historical, and societal issues. I’ll second the sentiment that your wife’s statement of how you intend to manage the religious development of your children is a thing of rare simple beauty and understanding (I also sincerely believe you’re in for a helluva ride when they’re adolescents, but that’s parenthood in general!).

Bravo. And peace.

120

I’ve been called many things before, but Enlightened is new :slight_smile:
What religion is that, by the way? Sounds sorts Buddhist/Daoistish?