I guess what I’m getting at is that, if we agree that breasts are not a feminine attribute–that both males and females can have large breasts, and it’s only social indoctrination that leads many to believe only women should have breasts–then why would you want to get rid of that part of your body? If you looked at them and felt that it made you appear to be too female, aren’t you falling victim to those same incorrect social norms?
But how can you “feel” like a specific gender without a preconception about what constitutes the parameters of that gender. And where do those preconceptions come from?
The more I hear, not in this thread but in the world at large, about gender issues the more I feel that we’re just throwing the transmission into reverse without a clutch and roaring back to the 1950s.
Anyone conforming to those gender roles is stamped CIS and then we’ve created a million different designations for anyone straying one inch outside those conventions. As a result it feels like we’re undoing a lot of the good we’ve done in the last 50+ years to expand the possibilities for everyone to express their true natures and not feel trapped by antiquated gender roles. In essence, we’re reinforcing patriarchal gender roles just so they can then be rebelled against.
I’m having a hard time not seeing all this as regressive rather then enlightened.
Where are you seeing this? Because it’s 180 degrees away from what I’m seeing in the queer and trans communities I associate with IRL.
I think I understand what Pabitel is saying. When a person is born with XX genes and raised in the traditional role of a female comes out and expresses that he is in fact a man, it readdressing the question of “What does it mean to be a man? What is masculine versus feminine.” What is gender? Once we agree that such terms are vague and meaningless, it becomes difficult to argue that, “I am actually a man on the inside. My gender does not match my biological sex” because gender is a social construct that is evolving as society progresses. So a person who is XX but doesn’t conform to traditional gender norms wouldn’t necessarily be a man on the inside. A biological female who claims to be male is just replacing one patriarchal label for the other. Shouldn’t she instead just be a woman who does not conform to our previous notions of binary gender roles. I think. Hell, I don’t know.
If we argue that there are no mental or emotional differences between men and women, then how can we argue that a person can legitimately be male on the inside, despite being female biologically. If there are no mental or emotional differences between men and women, then how can someone identify mentally or emotionally as male versus female?
I thought there was something nontangible attribute; some chemical process in my brain that made me male. Lucky for me, this was consistent with my physical appearance. I accepted that in some people, this chemical process (or whatever it is), could be different in some people. I accepted that it could easily be possible for someone with a male phenotype to have the brain of a female and actually be female. They identify as female, not by choice, but because of the same mechanism that cisgender females identify as female. Something in the brain.
But the recent discussions have seemed to throw that idea out the window. Recently, it seems, the argument is that there is nothing in the brain that makes a person either male or female. Gender is this vast spectrum that does not conform to our previous notions of male or female. A person only acts masculine, for instance, because that’s how society has taught him to act. When asked what makes a person male, every answer is met with, “but that could also easily apply to females”. As Pabitel points out, “without a preconception about what constitutes the parameters of that gender” how can a person identify as one gender over another. How can someone identify as male, if there is nothing that even defines what it means to be male.
To get back to the original discussion…
Hapax, do you ever wish you could feel yourself to be one gender or the other ? Or are you content to be nonbinary?
OK, I’m a straight male whose only experience with a trans was sharing a vaporizer toke. I think it was a guy becoming a girl, but I didn’t make any guesses or bring up the subject. I just talked about how smooth and clean the vaporizer was. What is the best way for somebody like me to address somebody who identifies as something really different genderwise, but it’s not apparent what gender they are?
Conservatives used to talk about “the gay agenda” to refer to “gay people asking for human rights”. Many conservatives speak with a southern accent. How do you feel about the fact that a thick southern accent talking about “the agender agenda” sounds like it is repeating itself?
ummm…Use their name?
Plus, if you are addressing them, then you wouldn’t need to use the words “he” or “she”. It would just be “you”. If you are referring to them in a conversation with soneone else, just use their name as manson suggests.
“Rebecca didn’t say if Rebecca wanted any popcorn, but I’ll ask Rebecca when I see Rebecca in the other room and let you know what Rebecca said.”
A conversation without pronouns sounds pretty weird.
Rebecca didn’t mention wanting popcorn, but I’ll ask and let you know.
Conversations without pronouns are not difficult.
Default to the pronoun “they”. It’s gender ambiguous and most people won’t be offended if you use it. Binary transpeople may sometimes feel a bit deflated they didn’t get a definite pronoun, but it’s leagues better than misgendering. If someone wants a different pronoun than “they” they’ll usually tell you.
Or you can try to deliberately ask or fish for it. Asking people for their pronouns directly can be awkward and make it feel like it’s only because they’re trans, so either make it a consistent part of your routine even for people you know are cis, or just use another method. One way to get around it is to introduce yourself and take the lead on introducing with pronouns saying something like “I’m Knowed Out, he/him”.
I’m going to answer these together, because I think the answers are tied together, and also because the first one is a very hard question I can only gesture at an answer to.
It’s pretty certain that autistics are more likely to be genderqueer and vice versa. Some popular articles on the topic:
- Why are a disproportionate number of autistic youth transgender?
- The Link Between Autism and Trans Identity - The Atlantic
Why is a much trickier question, and as those articles allude to, there are multiple theories. I’m inclined to think it has to do with how much of gender is performative and socially enforced. (See the video Jragon helpfully linked in #38 for a little more discussion of ‘performative’ gender.)
Gender roles are a thing. Maybe people would be better off without them, I’ll get back to that later, but right now every human society has concepts of “a man” and “a woman” and people judge other people by how well they fit those roles - that is, how well they perform masculinity or femininity. This is what people mean when they talk about gender being socially constructed, although there are more technical meanings in sociology. And as a result, most people grow up seeing people react positively when they behave in gender-conforming ways (for their assigned gender) and negatively when they behave in gender-nonconforming ways (for their assigned gender). For example, a kindergarden teacher letting boys yell in class because “boys will be boys” but reminding girls to use indoor voices is reinforcing gender conformity. So is a parent who frowns and acts worried if they see their young son playing with dolls. These are obvious examples, but it can be very subtle and pervasive and constant.
Gender identities, in the sense of a very strong inward sense that you are “a man” or “a woman” regardless of how you’ve been treated all your life, are also a thing. We know this because binary trans people with social dysphoria exist - that is, there are some people for whom being treated “like a man” or “like a woman”, whatever that means in the place and time they live, is painful, and who are much happier being treated “like a woman” or “like a man” even without changing the shape of their bodies. (Most binary trans people also have phsyical dysphoria - unhappiness with their secondary sex characteristics and a desire to change them, for example, a trans woman getting laser treatment to remove her beard. Maybe in a world with no gender roles physical dysphoria would be the only kind trans people got, but that’s not the world we live and and I doubt it ever could be.)
There’s a concept in some areas of the Web of ‘cis-by-default’: basically, a person can not have any particular sense of gender identity, but be contented being treated “like a man” or “like a woman” because that’s what they’re used to. It makes a lot of intuitive sense. After all, if a person has spent their whole life being told they’re a man or a woman, with the people around them - in hundreds of ways, from as small as frowning to as big as beating them up, every day, wherever they go - reacting badly when they instead behave in feminine or masculine ways? If the people they see on television and the heroes in the books they read are Masculine Men or Feminine Women, and gender nonconformity is a little freaky and suspicious? No fucking shit they go along with it. Pardon my French.
Autistics are very, very bad at picking up, subtle social clues, like the ones that tell us people are midly unhappy when we behave in gender-nonconforming ways. And because what counts as “gender-conforming” is so big and complicated and context-dependent that it basically takes an entire childhood to train someone on it, autistics are a lot more likely to not flinch away from doing gender-nonconforming things, to not have a subconcious “I should be Masculine” or “I should be Feminine” in our heads at all to drive us into playing a gender role even if we don’t have a very strong gender identity.
What didn’t work out with my assigned gender is that … I didn’t have a gender identity, and absent that, I didn’t see any reason to stick with the role. I mean, I thought about it, but it was something that I could think about as opposed to something where the alternative was just unthinkable. Autism also means that the things that give me a sense of ‘belonging’ to a group are intense shared interests we can talk about, and ‘woman things’ is not nearly enough. I’m not a woman because I don’t want to be a part of the Tribe Of Women. I don’t perform the rituals.
When I was in elementary school, my class tended to split up for lunch into a boy’s table and a girl’s table - the teachers didn’t encourage this, it just happened. Except me. I sat at the boy’s table, where the boys ignore me and talked about the games they were going to play at recess. Once or twice girls asked me if I wanted to come over to the girl’s table, they’d talk to me, they liked me. Except I didn’t want to talk to people at lunch. I wanted to be left alone with my book.
I have not seen it! Would you recommend it?
I’m a (primarily) straight cis woman and you are not at all wrong. I believe that it is objective fact that female bodies are more aesthetically pleasing and male parts are kind of goofy. 
(My daughterish is non binary. Not autistic - but very adhd and there are some overlapping behaviors - and is very good a performative femininity. But rejects the social boxes of being a woman or a girl. If woman were merely a description of her parts and not a whole bundle of expectations and treatment, she’d be fine being a woman)
I’m bisexual, and nine times out of ten, whenever I find myself attracted to a man, I’m like, “Really?!”
At least you haven’t been hanging out with Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla.
I know what you’re driving at but I’m pretty sure “I” and “you” are pronouns.
Well, I have been enjoying the series thus far. Dillon’s character Taylor (preferred pronouns: they/them/their) turns up in Season 2 and IMHO is one of the few entirely sympathetic characters in the show (unsurprisingly, most of the protagonists are quite ruthless). Taylor appears to be somewhere on the autism spectrum but is also one of the smartest people in the show. I understand that Dillon is agender IRL as well.
I wish they’d assume I was a lesbian, but I work somewhere so conservative that even ‘butch lesbian’ seems to be outside people’s personal Overton windows. However, after a while responding to ‘Got any plans this weekend?’ with ‘Not coming to work!’, they backed off and are too polite to dig.
Truth to tell, I forget names easily, and social classes change and evolve so rapidly, I lose track. It just seemed like the alt-genders here get temperamental when they’re not properly identified, so I need to make a new set of flash cards.