Ask the atheist psychologist who did ayuahasca yesterday.

It presented itself as a feeling, accompanied with a feeling of knowing, if that makes sense. It is not actual knowing, ( and how would there?) just a feeling of knowing. That is why, I think, asking someone to explain or prove their their religious or mystic conviction is a very frustrating and fruitless experience, for all involved.

As for what I experienced, I looked on the web yesterday to see if anyone had written my experience down better then I could have done. I found this short pieceby Alan Watts, a philosopher and priest. He also writes in a way that would not have pinged my own Woo-Annoyance-Sensor too much if I had read it before my own experience.

He boils down the psychedelic experience to four (psychological) elements. I’ll quote him in short. (Watts also does a good job, at the end of the piece, to explain why this kind of experience meshes better with Eastern religions then it does with the Western ones, although even Western religions have their own mystic branches, that they tolerate unless they get too vocal).

[ul]
[li]1. The first characteristic is a slowing down of time, a concentration in the present. One’s normally compulsive concern for the future decreases, and one becomes aware of the enormous importance and interest of what is happening at the moment.[/li][li]2. Awareness of polarity. This is the vivid realization that states, things, and events that we ordinarily call opposite are interdependent, like back and front, or the poles of a magnet. By polar awareness one sees that things which are explicitly different are implicitly one: self and other, subject and object, left and right, male and female-and then, a little more surprisingly, solid and space, figure and background, pulse and interval, saints and sinners, police and criminals, in-groups and out-groups. Each is definable only in terms of the other, and they go together transactionally, like buying and selling, for there is no sale without a purchase, and no purchase without a sale. As this awareness becomes increasingly intense, you feel that you yourself are polarized with the external universe in such a way that you imply each other.[/li][li]3. The third characteristic, arising from the second, is awareness of relativity. I see that I am a link in an infinite hierarchy of processes and beings, ranging from molecules through bacteria and insects to human beings, and, maybe, to angels and gods-a hierarchy in which every level is in effect the same situation. …From this it is but a short step to the realization that all forms of life and being are simply variations on a single theme: we are all in fact one being doing the same thing in as many different ways as possible. [/li][li]4. The fourth characteristic is awareness of eternal energy, …one sees quite clearly that all existence is a single energy, and <part of> that this energy is one’s own being.[/li][/ul]

Contact, mostly wordlessly, with the greater universal life force. Which knew me intimately because I was talking to the part of the greater life force that was myself. A twin, if you will. But a wiser, greater, connected, timeless twin. But it loved me tremendously, with all the force and patience of the greater life force, because HeSheIt loved life. In the bigger picture, there is a LOT of empty cold void and very little life in theis Universe. Even though our own planet seems to be teeming with life in annoying quantities, life is, in the bigger picture, rare and precious, and especially lovable for Life itself. ( duh ;))
( Note: the rarity of life in the greater universe is undeniably a scientific fact. Astronauts have said similar things when looking at that little blue dot in a vast sea of cold nothingness).

I said the contact was wordless, but there were some visuals and some words.

My whole experience was also colored by a sense of importance, a sense of “rightness”. That feeling was of course chemically induced, but it made whatever I experienced t very meaningfull. Think about it this way: if that sense of “rightness” can make puking a sacred experience, it would have no trouble make such a [del]delusion[/del] insight into a meaningful notion.

I would compare it, psychologically, to experiencing great fear, which also focuses the mind and etches the experience and the lessons learned deeply in the brain. (Science has proven that fear can make people accidentally fall in love, as well. The people working at the Ayuahasca retreat said that people on the same trip often develop friendships)

Still awed, still good, still convinced. A bit like a mystic hermit coming down from the experience on the mountain, and well, life calls and there have to be crickets caught to eat and sand to wash with. :slight_smile: Or, in my case, I travelled back home, hugged my loved ones, and started doing my ordinary chores. *)
But the conviction remained with me that all is, in a larger sense, well. And that there IS a purpose. And that other people, and other living things are kindred souls to be kind to, if possible, just like I should be kind to myself. And that I’m not alone and that I can call on a larger source of benevolent energy if I need it. And that is a pleasant feeling that I might very well analyse until it’s gone, but I see no reason to. I like this particular kind of madness.

*) Some people don’t go home. One of the tripsitters did live at the place, temporarily. After his experience he had decided to get his affairs in order, to return, stay there and learn more. His story sounded much like a young man visiting a convent and deciding to live there for a while.

Well, exactly the same as yours, so thanks for your post. The only difference is that as a psychologist, I have more words for the associated concepts. To my surprise, that does not diminish the experience.

Yes, I have always been curious about experiencing other realities then my own. Books, art, “living archaeology,”, even my choice for studiyng psychology, all have been tools to that effect. That is even one of the reasons why I joined this board, to get a feel for how those strange Americans are when they can speak out freely. :slight_smile:

That is also why I have tried hanging out with a Christian friend of mine. Even going with her to church meetings. That brought me some understanding of what living religiously could look like from the outside, but it did seem all rather…like a dance looks, when you don’t hear the music the dancers dance to. Also, religion remains how humans “do” GOD/the Universal Lifeforce, and many of the aspects of organized religion still don’t appeal to me. And they do not need to, it is a good thing everybody is free to be (a)religious in their own way. But t I now see better what purpose organized religion serves and how a genuine religious feeling may be at the root of it all.

Back to what psychedelics I tried, …what psychedelic work in what way for whom, is hard to predict and depends on many factors. The thread I linked to in the OP mentions the experiences other Dopers have had with LSD.

As for me, I tried weed two or three times, but it only made me nauseous and sleepy. (Weed qualifies, farmalogically, as a mild psychedelic). I tried mushrooms once, found them interesting but rather like losing my way in a sweaty, earthy, Grimm bed time story.
Tried LSD three times and found it interesting for the senses. Like an immersive art installation or ride, that messes with perception and sense of time. But LSD did not affect me emotionally. Or maybe I did not let it affect me emotionally.
I tried meditation and found it useful, but I did not have the discipline to persevere in it and get results. But, both meditation and LSD were helpful for my ayuahasca experience, as they let me practice steering thoughts or moods by taking the focus off of them. If you don’t have that skill and try a powerfull psychedelic, you are much more at the mercy of your own mind and fear, can more easily take over. Or, more likely, your own defensive mental mechanism against that fear takes over and you don’t experience much at all.

I never tried other kinds of drugs, aside from tea and coffee.

Exactly! Thanks for this well written post. My experience was still a little bit different in that I was shown that the animal parts of us, are the parts needed to experience the more spiritual parts. Can’t have music without instruments. So, gotta take care of the instruments. Joy, life, can only be experienced by living things, however imperfectly, and however mixed in with sad and painful experiences.

So that makes the purpose clear: to enjoy life yourself, in a responsible sustainable way, and not to harm other living things.

I don’t know Bill Hicks, but yeah, pretty much, from what I experienced. :slight_smile:

But as a description, it makes you go: “Oh. Well. …So ?” The difference with my experience is the color, the feeling to it all.

And in a way, this explanation is consistent with what we scientifically know about the universe. Having that knowledge might color the experience of any westerner taking psychedelics. If you’re an Inuit and have never seen a Discovery channel documentary, and you take ayuahasca, your experience may be more about being swallowed by the Great Whale ASUILAAK and finding oneness with the stars and the Northern Lights, or something. Cultural concepts form the mind.

I don’t understand this. I was raised Catholic and believed in God but that belief never resulted in any pleasurable feelings or altered states of mind. If religion resulted in anything vaguely as pleasurable and introspective and awareness raising as the LSD & shrooms I played with when I was younger, I’d be a monk holed up in a monastery tripping my ass off all day.

I rather suspect the experience was more or less the same; what differs is the post-experience descriptions. :wink:

Indeed, I’m rather of the opinion that the fundamental “experience” is pretty well similar across the board, but that extreme difficulties occur when people attempt any sort of description; it gets tinged with personal and cultural expectations, as one would expect.

The best we can do is catch the “flavor” from one another’s accounts. I think that people from different cultures and backgrounds can indeed transcend them, and recognize each other as having a similar reaction: as an atheist, I can see the value in (say) Christian mysticism, as an example.

I like your description, that you can’t have music without instruments, and that you need the animal parts. I think that is very true.

I guess what I’d get at is that the experience can sound awfully alienating: you see yourself in the ‘long perspective’, which may sound awfully belittling; but it isn’t - it’s exhilarating and liberating.

For me at least, it has gone a long way to eliminating my fear of death. It isn’t that I suddenly grew a belief in an afterlife, just the opposite: I grew a sense that I was, as it were, a living part of a grand design, and what is important - what must and will survive - is the design; the goal here is to make that design more awesome, and one can do that by (basically) living life to the full, exploring and investigating reality to the best of one’s ability, not harming others, and not harming one’s environment - by good stewardship and balance.

This too is very true.

Even the most drug free ‘rational’ mind is a maelstrom of non-rational thinking. Many psychiatric drugs are used with the basic intent being to improve rationality.

That part about DMT being the active ingredient in ayahuasca: I got to ask about that, having some long-ago experience with DMT, and finding it about as “mystical” as meth. Which is to say, similar to the warmth and comfort of a hair shirt stitched with barbed wire. Friends would compare the experience of DMT with smoking guitar picks, it is some nasty-ass shit.

So, really, DMT? Yuck-o-rama.

Yes, from what I got told afterwards and read, the difference between ayahuasca and DMT is large, both in the kind of experience, the length of it, and the people that are drawn to it. Quite probably, DMT is one of the ingredients, and not the only one. Actually, a ceremony includes a prepatory drink from at least two plants, and then the main potion that can be also made from several different plants ( the Wiki page has names to them, and there are many recepies on the Net, shared by enthusiasts.)

And as well as additional difference in chemical ingredients, there is also a profound differences in the attitude in which it is used. DMT is called a lunchbreak high; to heaven and back in twenty minutes. Aya asks for a mental preparation of weeks, a 10 hour fast beforehand, and at least two days to fully experience it and to come down again.

Ah, gotcha.
Well, the retreat asked me the same thing. They sent me a form I had to fill out and they evaluated it before letting me participate.

I told them, truthfully, that it was part curiosity, but that I also wanted to work through some psychological issues of my own. Mild depression, and an angry kind of “I Need To Fix Everything That Goes Wrong And I Nobody F*ing Helps Me”-attitude that had me burn out at work seven months ago.
I knew ayahuasca has been known to help with depression, PTSD, and addictions. Here are the 168 scientific studies done in that direction.. I thought it worth a try.

Before you decided on this course, did you consider 'shrooms? Of all the various forms in the psychedelicatessen, that has been the one I might recommend* to someone. To metaphor, it doesn’t tear down the wall and shove you through, it just opens the door a bit and leaves it ajar. You can wander in, have a look around, and still go back if it makes you uncomfortable.

Also, flexible dosage. Have a bit, wait an hour or so, see what it feels like, take a bit more, repeat, as needed. If you feel like you have a solid buzz going but could still get up and make tea without a problem, you’re pretty much there.

*Let it be noted: I do not, ever!, recommend. None of this is for everybody, I have known many people who’s relentless commitment to the strictly rationalist mindset is all that holds them together. A crutch is better than a wheelchair, but you need what you need.

The bad news is life has no Meaning. The good news is, it doesn’t need one.

Interesting. So do you think it helped with respect to a long terms solution? Or is it still the euphoric afterglow, so TBD?

You’ve intimated that the experience has pushed you away from your atheism. I’m curious if it has pushed you towards a specific religion or whether it just made you more “spiritual-minded.”
I wonder what affect it would have on me. I seem to have blunt affect compared to everyone else. It’s like I have this wall separating me from the amazing highs that everyone else seems to experience at least once in their life. I’ve thought about experimenting with recreational drugs, but I’m too chicken. So I’m intrigued by your experience.

Note of existential caution: if you did, you would never know if what you were feeling was “real” or a result of re-arrangement of your mental matrix. From here, having already done so, I think along the lines of “Well, what difference does it make how I got here, here is here”. Mileage may vary, almost certainly it will.

I know and like some people who’s rationalist mindset is granite, anything they can’t stuff into an empirical frame is “woo” And they’ll have none of it, thank you very much! OK, the strokes be different. I wouldn’t make such a suggestion to them because first off, they are likely to be insulted by my presumption and secondly, I don’t want the responsibility. Its their rubber ducky!

Maybe look for the mildest path with the least consequences. All you need is a glimpse, a karmic starter kit. Meditation is almost guaranteed one hundred percent harmless.

I’d probably make a video recording of myself beforehand, trying to talk myself out of any possible religious conversion / desire for cult membership.

As noted.

That’s like me telling myself I won’t drink to much *this *time.

You sound as if that is a bad thing. :wink: