So do you think these deep spiritual insights will solve these conflicts with your husband that you’ve been posting about? It’s one thing to see god, it’s another to integrate these insights into your life in a practical way.
Hey, Maastricht. Thanks for sharing this with us. Having dabbled a bit in the past with psychedelics and some dissociatives I find this interesting.
I am curious about the “nuts and bolts” of this experience. To wit: where did you go to do this? Was it in the Netherlands? You say it was a ceremony. Was it considered religious? A psychiatric “treatment / experience”? A medical “procedure”? None of the above? All of the above? Different things to different people?
In my experience, the legal status of certain “drugs” in NL is somewhat nebulous and can change subtly or not-so-subtly in a relatively short span of time (mushrooms especially, pot to some extent, some newer, “designer” drugs all over the place). Was your ceremony considered legal or at least “tolerated”?
Is this the sort of thing that some people might travel to Nederland to partake in? In much the same way as some folks travel to Peru to do so?
Very true. I hope and believe that the experience will make me more relaxed, more accepting and more kind. In fact, that was what I asked of the ceremony. Travellers are supposed to state/ask for themselves what they want from the experience, so that wish can act als a mental focus during the trip.
I asked to feel, to experience, and to enjoy more love in my dealings with my husband and son. I think I got that, and more.
But, of course, time will tell. I have been enthusiastic about solutions before.
But it is likely that it will have a positive effect: this 2006 John Hopkins study researched volunteers with a similar experience to mine. They found that two months later, both the travellers and, more importantly, the people around them reported positive changes in attitudes and behavior.
Good ! Nuts and bolts coming up.
Yes, my retreat, called World on Ayuarhasca, was in Doetinchem, Netherlands. Here’s the link to their site. It was a small but adequate building in a suburb, and ceremonies were held several days a week, mostly private ceremonies. Some people come back after their own experience and bring spouses, friends or parents to experience a ceremony together, and for them private events are arranged.
I got the impression it was either legal, or semi-legal (“gedoogd”). There was nothing furtive or secretive about it.
I had no idea what to expect, so when I arrived I told my husband on the phone that I was relieved it looked not only legit, but actually well equipped and welcoming. Not luxurious, or spacious, but everything that made the experience better had been arranged. Little thoughtful things, like very friendly lighting, and the absence of mirrors in the bathrooms. You don’t want to be scared by your own mad tear-streaked face when you get up mid-experience to use the bathroom.
I also remember telling my husband on the phone, a bit sourly, that the people working there all had that annoying quality I could not quite pinpoint, but had seen before with young enthusiastic converts into religion, a vegan diet, or meditating. Everyone working there had healthy bodies, poise, welcoming enthusiasm, and -seemingly unmotivated- purpose and good cheer. :dubious:
The ceremony started at 3 PM. This was an open ceremony, so there were 19 people, there, most of which did not know each other beforehand. Half men, half women. Ages from 20 to 65, most were between 35 and 55. Professional people, students, drifters.
For those 19 travellers, there were five trip-sitters watching them and caring for them at all times. The sitters worked in shifts, so there must have been about 8 of them present. There was also a DJ. And there must have been , in the background, people working to set out the food and to keep everything clean.
About two thirds of the travellers were Dutch, the rest came from all over. Two Iraqi ladies, one in hijab. An Iranian guy. Germans. There was a Mexican woman who had lived in Scotland for the last decade and she had booked a flight to the Netherlands especially for this experience. She said that she might have found a place in Scotland or England, but that she did not want to do anything illegal.
I’d say that about a third was first time traveller, and half had had up to 3 experiences. I did not talk to everyone there, but many were seekers of solace, or meaning.
And yes, there were also a few thrillseekers who just really enjoyed tripping. Many had previous experience with psychedelics, usually with mushrooms.
The price was 175 euro, or 197 USD. For that I got the preparatory e-book I was urged to study beforehand, the ceremony, the sitters, the guy playing the music, a vegan buffet style cold dinner afterwards, basic accommodations for the night’s stay (bunk beds and showers) breakfast and all the herbal tea I could drink. I doubt they got rich from it. I think quite a lot of the sitters were volunteers.
It was indeed all very ceremonial. Everybody was dressed in white. At first, cynical me thought they only wanted it to look churchy, because ceremonies are semi-legal, and just dealing drugs isn’t.
But I was struck by the respect, even reverence by which the people at the retreat talked about “Aya” and its teachings. The care, and dedication, with which they handed out the drink and made sure the travellers had a good journey. All of the people working there were experienced travellers themselves.
It was all very religious and spiritual, but very clearly not of one particular religion. Atheists, Buddhists, Christian, Muslim or any other belief might have felt at home there.
A life-changing experience that involves barfing, weeping, and changes your entire outlook on the universe. Sounds like parenthood to me.
Regards,
Shodan
Questions:
- When you went into this, were you WANTING to see God?
- Did someone say you would?
A bit more generally, what were you hoping for or expecting from the experience?
OP, if someone came to you and described the same experience, but you HADN’T had the same experience, what would your advice as a psychologist be?
And how would your advice differ now that you’ve undergone the same experience?
**1. When you went into this, were you WANTING to see God? **
No ! Urbanredneck, when I went in, the whole idea of God was not at all relevant for me. What I was hoping for, was a kind of psychotherapy-on-steroids. I was sick and tired of being angry, driven and tired for the last ten years.
Also, Robot Arm, I had heard that the experience often showed the traveller “who they really are”. Being the curious-about-me creature that I am, I wondered what I would see. Would I get a mystic ass-whupping? A lesson, uttered in a Morgan Freeman-voice, by whatever my mind pictured to be my sjaman? Would I get a psychedelic psych eval ? See myself as an angelic angel and go: “Hey, I really look good in radiant white robes ? ” 
I really did not know what to expect.
2. Did someone say you would ( see God ) ?
Do you ask that to see if my expectations colored the experience? That is very well possible. The retreat gave out an E-book to study beforehand. It’s in English, as a free download fromthis site. Readers can ignore Part 2. That is the authors view on society and mental problems. Part 3 is about preparing for a trip. Part 4 is where it gets interesting: a description of a few places an aya trip often takes the traveller.
The funny thing, is that reading it beforehand irritated me with the exalted, vague, emotional and woo-ish language. But afterwards, I have to say, it is rather an accurate, even practical description of what I experienced.
To summarize that chapter briefly, an aya trip may take you, among many other places, to:
[ul]
[li]The eternal bleak Void. Not a pleasant place, at all. Some call it Hell. [/li][li]Contact with Deity within / or inner Deity. That’s the one I had. there’s also the The Union Mystica, blissful oneness with divne love. I remember reading about that one and thinking: “Hey, that sounds like something those mystic saints I read about. Like that poor uneducated French nun Mary Alacoque, whose 1680 visions founded the Holy Heart revival of Christianity. (Aside: When Mary finally overcame her shyness about her visions and told her priest, he gave the now famous advice: “Donnez-lui de la soupe”. ( Give her some soup). Union Mystica sounded nice to me, but unproductive, and not for me, being an atheist. It also sounded like an reward to get only after working through other difficult stages. I remember being completely awed afterwards at the enormity of the gift I had just been given. [/li][li]Death and Rebirth, often by quite literally reliving ( what feels like) your own birth. [/li][li]A confrontation with emotional blockages. Feeling your connection, and revisiting your interactions, with the other people in your life, both positive and negative. That was what I hoped for. That is also the side of aya that has been shown many times to be helpful in dealing with addictions, as the traveller gets to feel, very clearly, what his addiction meant for other people. [/li][li]Colorful psychedelic “tunnels” from one stage to the next. The author links to a Youtube clip that looks like it. Think Jodie Foster’s interdimensional trip in the movie: Contact and you’ve got a general impression.[/li][li]Fear and frightening things. [/li][/ul]
Fun question. Word of caution though, I’m a psychologist, not a psychotherapist. I don’t see clients. I just studied psychology at my university for six years.
If someone came to me with this story, and I had not studied the subject like I had, I would be wary. I would ask questions. Taking non-prescribed, possibly illegal drugs, in a non-professional envoronment is usually not something a professional caregiver recommends. :dubious:
Reporting to have seen God, oddly enough, may be more culturally accepted in the USA, then it is in recently-atheistic, prosaic Holland.
But if my “client” seemed to make sense otherwise, talked in a coherent way, would be open to alternative explanations for what happened, I would be reassured. My focus would be at what the experience brought. Does my client feel okay? Would his or her course of action be likely to have positive results? Then I would probably say: well, it seems to have done you good. Take care and see me again if you feel the need.
And now, if a client came to me with this story, I would go: "Yes, I know. Quite an experience, ayuahasca, eh? Would you like telling me about yours? "
In fact, I had a similar talk today with a co-worker. A very nice intelligent guy. In the past, he had mentioned in passing that he was a Catholic, and I had thought in the back of my mind: “How odd that an intelligent person can be religious” . And then we just avoided the topic.
Today I asked him about it, at lunch. I told him I had had a religious…well, something. Then we had a pleasant talk about medieval Catholic mystics and which ones had written in a worthwhile manner about their experience. His favorite was John of the Cross..
BBC vid, Getting High for God.
Thank you for this. It’s a constant I have noticed but dared not mention
Musician Sting talks about his experience with ayuahasca. YouTube clip of 20 minutes.Says: “It’s been the only genuine religious experience I’ve ever had”.
Thanks, levdrakon! I’ve been reading a lot this past week. I’ve noticed how the idea of psychedelics in psychotherapy and spirituality seems to be less and less of a taboo recently.
monstro, I too would be curious how other people would react.
Some comments from my own perspective (duh).
I am a strict rationalist. If I have any faith, it’s in the scientific method. It also should be noted here that I have never tried ayahuasca, peyote, or other potent hallucinogens, except as noted below.
When I was much younger, I tried some hallucinogens, primarily in order to view things from a different POV, not in search of God/god/gods. LSD and mushrooms, primarily. (I don’t consider pot in the same class that might tend to engender religious experiences, having had a fair bit of knowledge of its effects on me.) I only tried 'shrooms once, mostly because I had a severely adverse reaction and vomited for several days afterwards. I tried L several times without adverse reactions. In none of these encounters did I have what is commonly termed a ‘religious experience.’ I never lost my sense of self or felt that I was out of control. I am also strongly in favor of guides being present during such ‘trips.’ Though I didn’t experience it, I think it’s important to help ensure that ‘bad trips’ either don’t occur or are exteriorly limited in their power.
The only time I ever encountered something along those lines was when I was in a long-term relationship with a girl who was deeply religious (Baptist), and it was without the influence of any kind of drugs. We were at a (Christian music) concert and she had been evangelizing me for months, I think because she didn’t feel that we could get married unless we were of similar beliefs. It wasn’t anything earth-shattering, just a feeling that I was in ‘contact’ with a higher being who loved me, and afterwards the ‘coming-down’ was like that from an adrenaline high…a general feeling of shakiness and fatigue, necessitating my sitting down and resting for a while. After the fact, I have to question whether I just wanted it to happen so badly that I imagined it. As our relationship soured for other reasons, I began to seriously question the reality of the experience, until now (30 years after the fact) I don’t believe it was anything more than suggestion. I’ve never had any other similar experiences.
According to Porphyry, Plotinus had four of five experiences along these lines during his lifetime, primarily through self-abnegation, physically and mentally, in which he came into contact with the Platonic One. (No foreign drugs involved here, either.) Of course, his mental framework would very likely have influenced the way he viewed his experience, as I’m certain mine did.
I currently suspect that it is more the desire to unify with a greater power that engenders these types of experiences rather than proving the existence of a higher being (and obviously, in some cases, with outside aid). Not to take anything from your perceptions, just the way I see it.
Does anyone know how to get in touch with Turey Tekina, the shaman in Brooklyn? I’d love to do a ceremony with him, but I don’t know how to contact him. Brooklyn’s Ayahuasca Guru
It’s been over a week, so I suppose most of the afterglow has worn off by now.
Yes, there is absolutely content I can still assess. The first two days afterwards, I sought out one of the songs that was played, and it moved me to tears every time. The feeling was still so very near.
It is still near, but like… Like I imagine faith is to those who have a living faith in whatever they believe in. It takes a bit of focus, a mindset, a conscious effort to keep up positive mental habits. But it takes less effort, somehow, there’s a strength I can call upon.
The content of my vision on the nature of the universe…Oh, yes, that was crystal clear during the trip and still makes sense.
The funny thing is that the vision did/does not even mesh all that well with my personal ethics, in some details.
The life force, for instance, is not at all interested in doing “good” and punishing “evil”, much to my disappointment. Pretty much the only two flavours are connection, and the absence thereof. And joy/life, and the absence thereof.
The rest of our emotions, and the rest of our ethics, are a matter of our bodies, and our cultures. And God looks at all our cultures from a *very *great distance.
Johnny Ace, you being influenced into a somewhat mystic experience by someone important to you seems perfectly possible to me.
In fact, this week I read an article about a “helmet” taht was "tested out on subjects on a festival. The helmet ensured sensory deprivation for about 15 minutes for the wearer, and subjects were suggested beforehand that they might have a mystic experience, because the helmet would electrically stimulate certain locations in the brain.
In reality, the helmet didn’t do a thing except providing sensory deprivation for those 15 minutes.
A lot of people, however, came out from onder the helmet with stories similar to mine here. :dubious:
All of this suggests to that the kind of religious experience had, is a mental state people can access. All I can say, is I am glad I experienced it, and if other people can experience that state by the aya-method or other methods, or even by accident, then that can be A Very Good Thing.
Brava, Maastricht! For venturing into this unknown and bringing back a wonderful (and apparently lasting) experience. The fact that chemicals “induce” or “permit” out-of-the-ordinary experiences makes perfect sense to me. Our bodies are made up of chemical-interactions.
And it was very gutsy for you to post about this experience on the cynical SDMB.
Well, it was pretty scary. Especially in the first hour. There’s a fear of losing control. One participant told me she was afraid she would lose the ability to breathe and fought in a panic to regain “control”. She did regain control, up to a point, and as a result she did not experience much for the rest of the trip.
I myself was pretty scared, too. Scared mostly of the people around me, and scared of my own fears taking over. It takes trust and an ability to let go to… well, to trust and let go.
I found this article.
The article then explains the brain science, that indicates that an ritual aya experience can create new emotional and habitual pathways. And how that canhelp in fighting addiction.