We have a team approach to phones. In my team are 9 child support workers, all with nonpaying caseloads. We rotate the phones daily. A typical day can have anywhere between 30 and 80 calls. We do try to pick up the phone every time, but that doesn’t always happen. If we do not pick up, the call rolls into voicemail. We are required to return calls within 24 hours and are subject to reprimand if we do not.
We do have an annoying IVR system, and despite the coldness of it, it does allow callers to quickly obtain information. Minnesota also has a child support website where people can obtain some information.
Is an incarcerated felon still on the hook for CS during the term of incarceration? Also, does that amount that would be owed during the prison term count toward arrears, if and when said felon is released?
Have you ever encountered any payors who basically had to choose between being current on their child support and paying their rent/buying food/keeping the heat on?
What about with the tough economy, what happens to people who get laid off? I know of someone who lost his job due to a layoff, and he filed a motion to adjust his child support. Of course, a month elapsed before he went to court, so he was already one month behind. And, he had to pay a fortune for his attorney just to show up in court, wait for hours to get called, then present the motion. Even then, the court only just reduced his CS amount - even though his income was now $0. I didn’t understand this - any percentage of 0 is 0, right?? So how would he be able to pay CS when he was unemployed? I have no idea. So now his past due support grew and grew as he struggled to get a new job, and he started getting threatening letters saying they were reporting him to the credit bureaus. What can a father in this situation do? It seems to me that the state would rather a father go homeless and hungry before stopping child support. Anyway, the good news is that this person quickly found a new job so he only owes a few months of back support. But still, it was a nightmare situation for him. I feel very bad for all the fathers out there, caught up the the bad economy and getting laid off, and to add insult to injury, having the state come after them, ruining their credit, taking away their licenses, etc.
This is true.
There are many things that could happen if a person is incarcerated. The charging does remain in place. However, if a person will be incarcerated for a while s/he can request an administrative review of the case and we would request (on behalf of the payor) that the charging be suspended for the duration of imprisonment. If the payor will not be incarcerated for very long, we give them information on how to file a motion and suggest they think about doing so upon release. Even though the courts are only supposed to go back to the date of filing, the majority of magistrates will consider periods of incarceration and / or public assistance in issuing an order.
If a payor will be incarcerated past the childs’ emancipation, we simply close the case.
I have many frequent fliers on my caseload, and it does change how I approach a case. Threatening contempt (which carries jail time) makes no sense against someone who is in jail more often than not. I try to refer payor who want to get out of that life to non-governmental agencies who can assist, but it’s up to them to make the effort. If a client with a criminal history is doing what s/he he can to change, the courts do look favorably and often will modify orders. However, the client is the one who has to make the motion. We cannot.
I’m of mixed opinion towards some of my clients who have problematic criminal backrounds. Some should have never had support set in the first place, but if they choose to skip court after being personally served, that becomes their problem. The courts are ceasing issuing orders when the obligor doesn’t appear, but they are issuing more bench warrants to get them into court.
I do work with quite a few of our wonderful probation officers to get our clients to come in and talk. They don’t give a rats ass about child support, but do not want to get on the wrong side of a PO. With their assistance we have been able to help clients either find employment / obtain new manageable orders.
When I have a case where the payor continuously chooses to do stupid things my willingness to assist diminishes. At some I have to say “enough”. The court grants a reduction because of jail time, they order the payor to employment programs that specialize in assisting felons in obtaining employment, and then the payor chooses not to attend and reoffends? I’ve done all I can. Then the case is referred to the County Attorneys office for further action (civil contempt, usually).
Sadly, every day. And conversely I speak with payees (with the children) every day who are in danger of losing their apartment/ heat / food when child support suddenly stops.
It is not a perfect system - it’s government.
If parties agree to a reduction they can do a stipulation (noted in an earlier post). Otherwise the payor must file a motion and obtain a new order.
More often than not, the problem is not due to a payor not being able to support one family. The problem occurs when a payor has three + charging orders. No normal person could keep on top of that many ordered obligations.
Then again, it’s the payors choice to have multiple children with multiple partners (this goes both ways - men and women).
By law we can withhold according to consumer credit protection laws - anywhere between 50 - 65% of a payors net depending on his/her situation. If we can receive payments from one employer in full, we do not withhold from a second employer.
Child support is withheld from Re-Employment Insurance. Again, the payor would need to obtain a new court order based on the change in circumstances.
I do not know why some magistrates / referees / judges order what they do. I have seen cases where the payor should have NEVER been ordered to pay, but was. For the most part I tend to put those cases on the back burner and try to never refer them for further enforcement.
I do not know how the courts are in your state, but we have two levels of court - the expedited and judicial family courts. Money only matters are heard by state hired magistrates and attorneys are not required. I never tell a client not to hire an attorney, but I do inform them one is not necessary in a magistrates court.
Our agency enforces what a court orders. We give the court information as available by the state, such as public assistance information, state reported wages, and information on any other case(s) the parties may have. After that point it’s the courts call on what will be ordered.
As far as ‘remedies’ (that is officially what they are called) go, most are automated and we have limited control over stopping them. Credit bureau reporting kicks in at $X amount of arrears overnight. Same thing with tax intercepts, passport denial, student grant holds, and drivers license suspension. We do have latitude with drivers license suspension more than any other punitive automated action. Once arrears are paid down, the actions go away.
Ideally, I would not have a caseload. Everyone would be paying what s/he was ordered, etc etc. Instead I am receiving 5 - 8 new cases per week from people who have been laid off, had to shut their doors. It sucks. Again, I can tell them about how to file a motion to try and obtain relief, but they have to do it. If the court denies their motion, they have 30 days to appeal it. I do understand how people get let down by the courts and wish some of the magistrates / referees / judges would get a clue.
To further than, and it kind of goes with Rhysdad’s comment - I also work with sucky people who feel we are nothing but glorified bill collectors. Technically, I guess we are. But in todays market we can’t be. Some of my clients never have, never will have the ability to pay. They missed the bus a long time ago, whether by nature or choice. Punishing them benefits no one. Clients who have had a good history but life has bitchslapped them do not deserve to be put down by us. Hell, many of us are worried for our jobs too and could be in their position in a heartbeat. We are trying to work with the courts, but that can be like talking to a robed wall. Like us, they have seen too many scammers to be open to everyone and every situation.
Gawd, it makes me sound pathetic, doesn’t it. Don’t hate me wah wah wah. I become frustrated with the outrage people have towards child support agencies, when the outrage should begin with the government who established the laws the agencies work under. Then move on to the courts who issue crappy orders that we are required to enforce. Then be pissed at us. Be pissed at us for not always giving a client the answer s/he wants to hear, but it may be the answer that we have to give under the law. Be pissed for us not always being chipper and perky. Whenever a client starts a conversation with “You people”, my hackles rise. If a client comes at me, I will respond in kind. I’ve been threatened, screamed at, cried on, hustled, lied to, and been blamed for countless things. It’s part of the job and I knew it would not be an easy job when I took it.
At the same time, we’re working with an order obtained through the courts. It’s not our order, it’s the parties’ order. There has to be some level of personal responsibility involved. Court orders state clients are to notify the agency when they move. If a payor doesn’t receive notice of punitive actions because we didn’t know they moved? That is not my problem. If a payor already has two charging cases, maybe s/he needs to think twice about wanting to start another family. I noted in an earlier post that there is a constant battle of control. Some payors do not want to pay just to punish the other party, for whatever reason. Some payees want us to do everything we can just to make the payors life miserable, for whatever reason.
Thank you for that insightful comment.
In your experience is it usually the woman gets first dibs on the children? How often do the men get custody, assuming they want it?
Men obtaining custody is increasing, but it’s still a fairly low number. There has been a big push from outside organizations working to change the courts collective mind to see that the woman is not always the best custodial parent.
It goes beyond court, though. Usually, when parties break up, the woman ends up with the child(ren). Why? I can make many wild assed guesses, but I do not know. If more men take the children when the relationship splits up, then it is what it is. In my experience I have never seen a father walk into court with physical custody and walk out without it.
Many men seen to feel it’s not “right” to be the custodial parent. Again, it’s that societal mindset that we collectively need to get over. Men think the courts would not order a woman to pay support. That’s incorrect (unless she receives cash public assistance or SSI - same with men). Men often think the courts would deny them a change of custody. It does happen, yes, but courts no longer simply say “no” - family studies are done to evaluate which parent would provide a healthier home for the child(ren).
There are many mens groups out there whose main focus is the inequality of the family court system. Most are beneficial. Some exist simply to antagonize. Unfortunately, they are the ones who are the loudest. They do not move the subject forward, they just point out the problems and laugh Nelson style. Those organizations who are working with the courts have seen the changes that are occurring, and understand it is a slow process.
I strongly support men who want to obtain custody of their child(ren). I wish more would pursue it.
But doesn’t the custodial parent have these same issues and more if they lose their job? If you don’t have sufficient funds put aside for job-loss situations, you get to beg & borrow money if you can. Your credit gets ruined. Maybe you end up homeless with your kids in a shelter. Maybe you end up taking a not-ideal job to put food on the table while you try to find a better one. Maybe you work two jobs for a while.
Kids need to be fed & clothed & sheltered. You don’t get to save the money that goes to that if they live with you and you lose your job. You can scrimp and save in that situation, and it seems fair to me that the non-custodial parent also has to face some tough choices at times.
In a perfect world nobody would lose their job. But we know we’re not in a perfect world, and if possible, the children should not be the ones who have to suffer because of job losses.
But, is it an insult or an analogy?
I was prepared to go all nuclear on the mod that called me on it…but it’s not worth it.
and to MissTake…
-
To be honest, it wasn’t just one worker that has treated me in a despicable manner. I’ve yet to meet one that was courteous. Rudeness seems to be a prerequisite for the job.
-
As you say, you’re “just enforcing the law.” Y’know, I’ve never invoked Godwin’s Law before, but this situation screams for it.
-
“Take it up with your legislators.” You think I haven’t? The most recent change was a couple of decades overdue, and then when it was passed, it came with the codicil that you still had to wait to ‘apply’ for an adjustment in order to not overwork the poor CS workers.
-
I mentioned this in a previous thread, but I need to re-state that I resent that little letter that I get every month threatening me with all sorts of penalties and then ends up with words to the effect of: “If your payment is made by payroll deduction, never mind.” I’d hazard a guess that most CS payments are made by payroll deduction. How much tax money is wasted by sending out tens of thousands of those letters every month? I’ve written my legislators, but they don’t seem to care about the waste. Why doesn’t someone from your office take on this issue? (Yes, I know it’s a “state” thing and not a “particular collection office” thing. Still, you know it’s wrong, and maybe someone from your office might be able to start the process of resolving this problem.)
-
There’s no “h” in Rysdad.
My son just turned 18, and I’ll continue to pay CS until he graduates in June. Thank God I’ll be done with it then. All told, I’ll have paid over $100,00 in support. How much of it went to my son, and how much of it went to my ex-wife’s subesequent two kids, the three cars, new boat, and new house she bought with her 2nd husband (who makes less that I do)?
That’s another thing that pisses me off…the “obligor” is the only one accountable for anything. The recipient can do damn near anything she pleases with the money–no questions asked.
Whatever. It’s almost over, and I’ve wasted enough energy over the years on this issue.
Lastly, to Muffin…I don’t feel the need to limit my outrage at all. If the OP is part of the process, she’s part of the problem. Simple.
BTW…I have let the judges and magistrates know exactly how I feel regarding this archaic, draconian system. They don’t give a fuck.
Re: the OP’s name…I was referring to her name as Miss Take, as in “my job is to take, and that’s what I’ll do” not as in “mistake.” She has since clarified the basis for her name, and I’ll leave it at that.
I agree, however, it is very costly and difficult, and often a losing battle.
I think the reason for this is because a lot of the time, it’s the fathers who work, and the mothers who stay at home and care for the kids. So why would a judge grant custody to the dad when he would just have to put the kids into daycare? So they go to the mother because she doesn’t work and she can stay home and care for them. How is she able to afford this? The father’s child support, that’s how. And once the kids spend time living primarily with their mother, judges are very hesitant to remove them, unless there is provable abuse or neglect.
This exact situation is playing out with my boyfriend. He has spent an enormous amount of time and money trying to get custody of his children.
Initially, after his divorce, he did not get primary custody because he was in the military and stationed overseas for a 1-year period. The mother never worked and was a stay-at-home mother. She lived on his child support.
Later, she remarried. This man (who I’ll call “step-father”) was recently arrested and charged with child molestation* and is scheduled to stand trial for this in April.
As soon as my boyfriend found out that his kids were living with a man charged with child molestation, he hired an attorney and started fighting for custody. This has been going on since August (so, 6 months so far) and he hasn’t been awarded custody. The judge will review it once the step-father goes to trial.
Thankfully, however, the judge ordered that the step-father must leave the family home and can only see the kids once every 2 weeks for supervised visitation.
But, even if the step-father is convicted, there is no guarantee that my boyfriend will get custody of his children.
The family went to mediation a couple of weeks ago, and the mediator submitted her report to the court. The mediator said she feels that since their mother’s household and lifestyle is all they have ever known, it would not be good for them to live with their father. Whether the judge will agree is yet to be seen - the next court date is in a few weeks.
If the step-father goes to jail, that leaves the mother alone in a house with 6 children: my boyfriend’s 3 kids, and her other 3 younger kids (who she had with the step-father). She has no income, and the step-father would have no income if he went to jail. How she would support and care for them, I do not know.
My boyfriend makes an excellent salary and can afford a nice house for them. There are multiple reasons why he would make a superior parent (which I won’t go into here)… but I seriously doubt that he judge will consider it, EVEN IF their stepfather is a convicted child molester… So far, my BF has faced obstacles at every turn.
All of this has been VERY expensive - the attorney has cost thousands of dollars so far. Luckily my boyfriend has the funds, but how would a father who can barely afford his CS ever be able to afford to challenge custody? He can’t.
The system is clearly stacked against the fathers, and it makes me very sad and angry. I see what my boyfriend is going through and it makes me want to cry. His children are being extremely damaged in the process.
As a footnote, after my BF found out about the charges against the step-father and filed for custody, his ex-wife retaliated by filing for an increase in child support. He was already paying a whopping $1,800/month. She was so mad at him for “making a big deal” out of the step-father’s criminal matter, that she took him back to court for more money. What a winner she is!!
- The victim is NOT any of my BF’s kids - it is an unrelated 13-year-old female child.
Oh, Rysdad, I could not agree with you more…
This is a MAJOR problem problem with the child support system. The payors have their finances scoured with a fine toothed comb, and are the only ones held accountable.
This makes the “system” ripe for abuse. Like in Rysdad’s case, clearly, his ex was using his CS payments for many other purposes other than supporting HIS children.
Same goes for my boyfriend’s situation. Like I said before, his ex-wife is unemployed, and has never worked. She is 32 - she had her first kid at 18, and has NEVER earned any income in all that time.
She now has 3 additional children (for a total of 6 kids). Her new husband does not make a lot of money. Clearly, the funds my boyfriend pays to her are used to support not only his 3 kids, but her other 3 kids and herself.
Someone above said it would be too hard to administer a program that made the mother accountable for what they spend the CS on. But I disagree.
For example, the CS could be paid into an account that gets audited. The CS would have to be used for only specific purposes. This could include housing, utility bills, food and clothes for the kids, even gasoline for transporting the kids… things that can be looked at and be proven that the money is being put to use for the kids.
But a system like this will never happen because the system is biased for the mothers and against the fathers.
To MissTake, how often do you hear fathers complaining that their CS is not used for its intended purpose? How do you deal with it? Do you know of any legal recourse fathers can take if they feel their CS is being used inappropriately? How often is this successful? Do you feel any sympathy for these situations?
All that is true, but the mothers (or custodial parents) have help available that the fathers do not. They can get food stamps or WIC; they can get welfare based on the fact it’s a household with children; the children can get Medicaid, and mothers are covered under Medicaid when pregnant and after pregnancy. The father cannot take advantage of any of these benefits - they only benefit the household with the children in most instances.
I don’t blame the child support enforcement officers, though they do treat most men like complete trash. I’m sure they deal with a lot of deadbeats, but it really is frustrating to be treated like one when I’m trying to get things caught up because they backdated a change to my support amount by 5 months. This put me $1000 behind but they never notified me about it. I have child support on automatic payroll deduction and I saw it increased the payday following the change, so I thought things were fine. I only found out about it when attempting to purchase a home and it came up on my credit report.
Anyhow, the family courts are truly the problem. My ex wife did everything she could to keep my son away from me and was rewarded for her efforts. By alienating him from me, she won because he had a stronger relationship with her. The guardian ad litem also once voiced concern that she was concerned if I won custody, it would make the ex wife feel sad and we might celebrate openly in front of her. I’m sorry, shouldn’t the concern have been over what was best for my son, not what the ex wife would feel? I could go on and on over how much of a farce the whole thing was, but I do commend you for opening the thread. It is an interesting read and please treat us with respect, most of us want to be there for our kids and try to keep on top of the support payments.
In your opinion are the child support payment amounts really fair? Ten years ago I was paying $400 a month until I got custody of my daughter. Her mother just blew that money on partying, clothes, and doing her hair and nails. It really pissed me off that my infant daughter wasn’t being cared for, and I was supporting the party lifestyle that led to her not being cared for.
The recepient of the child support should have to justify what the money is for and what they are spending it on. I don’t think it costs much more than a couple hundred a month to raise a child in a middle class family, although that would vary depending on where you live and other factors.
Oh, and another question. I’ve heard of fathers just not working (or getting paid under the table) so they didn’t have to pay child support, does that work and if so what can be done about it?
Where I live, just the difference between a one-bedroom and a two-bedroom apartment costs more than that per month. And that’s not even counting groceries or clothing or medical care. A week’s day care can cost almost that much.
This link on costs to raise a child at various ages and income levels is pretty informative. $170-200K to age 18 seems to be a good estimate for middle class. That comes out to around $800/month.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/family/kids/tlkidscost.asp
Maybe this topic deserves another thread, but there’s no way that a child costs anywhere near $800 a month (average from age 0 to 18) to raise. I find that article very suspect, why is the 0-2 age group the cheapest? What about diapers and formula? That’s pretty expensive. Plus a child has more doctor visits in it’s first year or two. Just my experience.
The actual day-to-day costs mostly amount to food. Clothes are an occasional need, but if you shop around you don’t have to pay a lot for quality clothes. How do you incur $2,600 of yearly housing expenses attributable to the child? Maybe a bit more electricity, but not $260 a month! Maybe $30 a month. You’re going to heat your house one way or the other, and unless you are renting a larger apartment because of the child I don’t see it. In my case, I had a 3 bedroom house before my child was born, so it was the same house afterwards. The healthcare costs seem very low to me, and housing costs very high.
I guess the problem here is that everyone’s family and lifestyle is being pushed into the mold of that mythical average family with income range “up to $39,100” or “$39,100 and up.” We need to do better than that.
$260 a month is cheap in regards to the difference between a one bedroom and two bedroom apartment in many places. Without a kid, I’m fine with a one bedroom or even studio. But with a child, I’d have to get a two bedroom and incur the increases that go with it. As for heating, especially for lower income people, if you’re alone or just living with adults, you hardly ever keep the heat on. You bundle up and just endure it. But when there’s kids in the house, especially babies, you really can’t do that. You have to keep the baby warm so you crank up the heat higher than you normally would.