In the days when I was lost and searching and as of yet not finding, I was advised by many evangelical Christians to seek out God personally, to pray directly to God, to make myself open to God coming into my heart.
When I did so, and received as a result a rather markedly different set of explanations and replies from God than those that they felt constituted the Right Answers, they tended to advise me that I had reached a wrong number and should dial again.
For my own part, I did acknowledge (even to myself, in all seriousness) that there was a distinct possibility that delusions on my part were playing a role here, and I felt that if that which had been revealed to me was truly from God it would withstand my scrutiny and my willingness to consider it erroneous, as well as remaining true for me over time and not just in the heady moments of feeling touched by God (and/or in the head).
That was half a lifetime ago and it continues to be true for me. (I am therefore of my own, non-aligned religion).
Question, then: where lies authority? If one (such as myself) says “I prayed to God and God spoke unto me and set forth these things…” and another person says “The things you speak are not correct because they contradict what I grew up being taught in church”, and yet another says “The things you speak are not correct because they contradict what is written here in the Holy Book by other people to whom God spoke directly”, and yet still another says “The things you speak are not correct because you do not have any religious authority to determine that they are truly from God, and those possessing those offices say otherwise”, then what are they holding up as the location of true spiritual authority? And what say you?
Dunno about the Universalists, but I would say in the end it comes from the Bible, that being the inspired divine Word of God. It is good to study the Bible with others and talk to others about it because often others can help to put things in context and maybe explain how cryptic Scriptures might be understood in the times and places they were written (as with any literary work). People have always disagreed about different aspects of Christianity. Heck, I disagree with Universalism, but I don’t think that negates their salvation. God does tell us things in prayer, but IMHO if they don’t check out with the Bible then God didn’t tell it to you. In the end, like my old youth pastor said, “Pray and read the Bible”.
And you know this as a result of God telling you, personally, that the Bible is indeed the word of God and that you should believe upon it?
Or do you know this as a result of ministers, preachers, priests, or your papa telling you that the Bible is indeed the word of God and that you should believe upon it?
Or do you perhaps know this as a result of the Bible itself proclaiming itself to be the word of God?
Or maybe you know of this not from a single source of authority but from several, weighed in tandem, so as to constitute the preponderance of the evidence available to you or something of that sort?
It’s good to hear from a fellow Christian who is not afraid to proclaim the awesome love of God for all of us. I will take issue with your reservation (hopeful) as I see no reason to espouse a limitation to His perfect grace or an inability to exercise His will. I say this while being hopeful that you don’t take this as criticism, but that I am just taking the opportunity to express my understanding of Him.
Here is a little tidbit for you entitled The Early Christian View of the Savior by Gary Amirault. In here is a quote from the third century Alexandrian church scholar Origen in an exchange with a Greek philosopher named Celsus. I provide this as an example of the beliefs in the early church. Origen was huge in his time.
And
Well I would like some clarification here . Does that mean Cro-Magnon are not descended for Adam and therefore do not come under the condemnation? That is the only way I can read this comment.
I have a serene faith in His love, and I believe His love will be the source of all eternal life. I think He will be where you are, and you will choose to follow Him, or not. I don’t think it will require you do make a specific declaration, or meet a specific criterion of your expression faith. I think that the intelligence necessary to understand the concept of salvation and damnation will be irrelevant.
Will you be loved? Will you love? Here is Love Eternal. Join it, and live forever. The choice is yours.
I think some will choose not to accept it. And I do not think that eternal life lies with any other choice. Destruction is not a punishment. It is just entropy, the natural state of the universe. Salvation is a miracle, and not a part of the universe.
I offer no authority for my views. I offer this thought to those who find my faith to be without validity. If there is no God, and no eternity, could it be true that love for each and all, from every soul willing to love would be a good thing, anyway? If it is beautiful, and brings joy and ameliorates suffering, perhaps unquestioning love is more desirable than its logical validity might indicate.
God is. And I am unafraid, although I am a wicked man, given to debauchery, and petty vanities. The Lord is greater than I, and in the reflection from my shallow image, His love can shine out into eternity.
Tris
“Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage.” ~ Lao-Tzu ~
Tris, at the risk of perpetrating yet another hijack of Friar Ted’s thread, I want to tell you that comments like the above, over the past couple of years, while not wakening a call in me to any specific religion, have definitely helped guide me to accept the presence of agape as a real thing. Whether that real thing is independent of sentient existence is not a mystery I feel particularly compelled to resolve. I choose to believe, knowing that no evidence does or can exist to support the belief, that it may as well be a thing independent of all other things; that “necessary existence” that Lib talks about. (This may cause me to relinquish my materialist credentials if I’m unable to maintain the necessary hypocrisy — but I’m very strong in that quality.)
I’m probably not saying this too clearly, but I wanted to say that it’s not that you or your words, or anybody’s words have changed me, but your constant example, in threads like this one, has been part of the experiences which convinced me to open my eyes to other things that to my very great surprise have changed in a fundamental way my apprehension of existence. I conduct myself in basically the same way I always have, carry the same tendencies, faults, aspirations and desires, and have the same understanding of physical principles. But I believe so very much differently than I used to.
I wanted to say to you, and to Friar Ted (and to a host of others who know who they are, I hope) that simple witnessing does make a difference, if only to say to people like me “Keep looking; stay open; consider things without prejudging. Love abides.”
Friar Ted, what do you think of athiests? Not only people like me, for whom religion has never been a part of our life, but people who were raised in religion, studied it intensely—and then decided it was nothing but fables and fairy tales, and they had no further use for it?
How can I disagree with most of the moral and political stands of someone like FriarTed and yet keep admiring him? Maybe I just appreciate the open-mindedness and clear communication of this thread.
I keep stopping back here, just to bask in the quality of the dialogue. Thanks, 'Ted (and Polycarp and Vanilla and others)!
Can you imagine what the world would be like if more Christians were like these?
Thanks,
digs
(another rare break out of lurker mode, like Sdrawkcab)
As much as I hate circular reasoning, I think at rock bottom the reason I believe on the Bible is because God told me. If I didn’t believe on it, I wouldn’t be a Christian.
Also, I was pretty much raised in the faith, so although it was my choice to accept Jesus, I grew up in a Christian household.
I guess several reasons in tandem, then. Because God told me, and because I was raised in a household that believed on it.
(Incidentally, AHunter3, may I compliment you on that post? You made a point that gets brought up a lot in these discussions, but I’ve seldom seen it articulated so clearly.)
OK, so FriarTed has been around longer than me. I haven’t encountered him often enough to trigger that inverted pot of goo I use for a brain to recognize him.
You know, for a blatantly secularist, hardheaded skeptic myth busting message board, this place is beginning to have a fairly deep bench, Christian witness wise. You heathens better watch your step, or we’ll have saved your asses, while you were dazzled by out clever rhetoric.
OK- I’m gonna try some quick reponses & later I’ll elucidate on them when I get the time (this is church Christmas play week so I have to juggle work & rehearsals & don’t have much time on the Net S)-
AHunter- I’m not gonna fault you since you sought God in prayer & came to different religious conclusions than I. I will agree with SuperGnat’s response- for me, it comes down to the Bible (actually it comes down to Jesus, but since I wouldn’t know about Him except from the Bible, they kinda intertwine.) Where in your faith does Jesus fit?
Sampiro- I don’t know. Many raised in other faiths come to C’tian faith; many raised in C’nity go to other faiths. I just know that I’m convinced God’s fullest Revelation is in Jesus & that God’s given us a written record in the Bible.
Grienspace- I’m well familiar with Gary & Tentmaker. I’m Ted on the discussion board there S RE Cro-Magnon- If they were pre-Adamic,
they may not have even had God-Image potential & thus would be as fallen or unfallen as intelligent animals. Then again, CroMags may well have been Adamic. I’m VERY unclear about how human origins work out in detail.
xenophon- I welcome hijacks like that!
Triska…- The possibility of FreeWill continual rejection is why I’m a Hopeful Univ!
Eve- I think atheists are mistaken, and will certainly be embarrassed in the Afterlife, but I hope they find it a pleasant embarrassment.
I prefer honest searching thoughtful atheists to mindless believers. However, there are two types of “atheists” that drive me nuts- those who are too lazy to investigate the Big Questions and those who are not true atheists but rather are “anti-theists”, who hate the idea of God & those who believe in God- the most well-known of whom seemed to be Madalyn Murray O’Hair.
Just a bit over a year ago, we had an atheist proselytyzer, one we ended up dubbing “The Jack Chick of Atheism”. In a thread he started titled Jesus: I’m not impressed, I laid down in response what some people regard as the best post I ever posted to the board, and since it was on topic, I’d like to ask you to read that first. (I’m not good at referencing individual posts so you’ll have to scroll, but it’s a long post about 1/3 down the first page. Or do a search for “Ahunter3” in your browser on that page).
I read your Jesus post & that was quite good! After this weekend’s over I may cross-examine it (pun NOT intended! ;-)) but that one of the best looks at Jesus from a non-orthodox view I’ve read.
I note you mentioned homosexuality is a sin, and will be accountable, even if the purveyor of said sin will end up saved anyway. Why is it a sin? How does one atone for it? What will the punishment be, if not eternal damnation?
FTR, I’m a Unitarian Universalist myself, but not Christian (although there are an awful lot of Christian UU’s out there). What’s your take on the UU church?
