I was curious about some of the apocolyptic prophesies, and was wondering if anyone could enlighten me on things like the Rapture and other “end of the world” type prophesies.
Please indicate if you believe in these as hard and incontrovertible truths, guidelines for living a better life, or mythology if you respond.
Can you tell me where your concepts of the Rapture and other items, for example how many people are allowed into Heaven, come from? Specific cites preferred if possible.
Regarding end of the world I’m specifically interested in prophesy regarding the appearance of an “Antichrist”. I googled this stuff but you really get a lot of information, some of it a bit inconsistent. What do you believe in as to this subject, why, and what was your source of information? Were you raised to believe by your family or did your beliefs occur more over a period of time or at a specific point in time?
I may have some follow up questions depending on the response. Thanks for sharing!
NOTE To any anti-Christian posters - please leave this thread alone or don’t belittle anyone’s shared beliefs here. If you want to contribute and share your knowledge, thoughts or beliefs, please be respectful in the beliefs of others who post here, even if you vehemently disagree. I expect true Christian behavior from the Christians as well.
As a Christian who earlier had held to Future-Rapturist theology & now have an open view of EndTimes prophecy, I’ll give ya what I believed & what I believe now.
Regarding the number of people let into Heaven- all who entrust themselves to Jesus as Lord & Savior are guaranteed. God’s Love extends to all people & all who seek to serve their concept of a Creator & reach out to others in compassion may also be considered as exercising saving faith by God. Revelation 7 & 14 have
nothing to do with the number of people saved, let into Heaven or Raptured- the 144,000 symbolize the remnant of Israel to be Christ’s witnesses. Jesus in John Chs 3 & 14 gives an exclusive view, in Matthew 25’s parable of the Sheep & Goats Judgement, He gives a more inclusive view. Based on the last half of Revelation 7, those saved/in Heaven will be innumerable & of every people.
If there is indeed a future Rapture (a taking-into-Heaven of believers before the AntiChrist comes into power/the Time of Trouble is unleashed) however, I think only committed Christians will go as a sign to the world of the truth of the Christian faith. What I believe is that the Rapture will occur after the AntiChrist’s Reign/Troubles are well underway- maybe right at the conclusion. By that time, humanity will have made a clear choice for or against Christ. (I base my belief in a late-Tribulation Rapture on comparing Matthew 24 with I Thessalonians 4, Paul’s warning in II Thess 2 that our gathering to the Lord will not occur till the rise of the Man of Lawlessness, and the absence of a pre-Trib Rapture in Revelation but the possible indication of a pre-Vial of Wrath "harvest’ In Rev 14).
I tend to believe in a future AntiChrist- technically two, the political leader “the Beast” and the religious leader “the False Prophet”, the latter perhaps being at least ethnically Jewish (part of the plot being a pretence that one of them is the Messiah). I was formerly sure that they would arise from the West, primarily Europe but perhaps the USA- now I think they could come from anywhere. They might even put on a pretence of Christianity, tho it would be discarded when possible. II Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 & 17 were my primary sources here.
Btw, I came to all this on my own- in my teens I got into Hal Lindsey’s LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH & similar books, then in my college years I discovered the varied other ways of interpreting Bible prophecy. My family wasn’t into it at all, tho they did take me to a church which taught the same way.
anything else?
What is the debate here, exactly?
I have to warn you if you’re looking for Biblical support of a specific Rapture theology, you’re not going to find it. Many of the “Endtimes” association that you mentioned (Rapture, the “Antichrist,” etc.) are formed from highly interpretive readings of diverse passages which read differently in context.
The Rapture, in the sense of a preliminary ascension of the “saved” before a time of tribulation is not in the Bible. Neither is the popular concept of a futuristic “Antichrist” hwo will take over the world. The word “antichrist” does not appear in the book of Revelation but only in the Epsitles of John who uses it as a polemic against apostatic Christians and enemies of Christianity in general. The antichrist is not a single individual, nor is it a predictive prophesy, nor is there anything supernatural about it. The antichrist is often conflated with the “Beast” in Revelation but they’re not really synonomous. The Beast was a symbolic image for the emperor of Rome. Revelation was written during the reign of the emperor, Domitian, who persecuted Christians. It’s written in the apocalyptic genre which means that it uses coded allegory to communicate messages to the faithful. The esoteric nature of the genre meant that it would not be readily understood by the enemy (in this case, the Romans). Revelation was intended to offer a message of comfort and encouragement to Christians during a time of persecution and assure them that God would have the last word.
The whole “Rapture” thing emerged only in the 19th century and was largely popularized by a preacher named John Darby. It’s a minority belief in Christianity even now.
There might not be one. But since, as you mention, there are many different ways to interpret the diverse passages that have created a large number of individualized school of beliefs, there might be some contention about “the Truth”. Also since GD is generally the place for religious speech (witnessing), I thought it safest to put this thread here instead of GQ, since that also might occur and I didn’t want to handicap potential responses.
I was personally raised Catholic, although I stopped attending church many years ago, and don’t really recall most of these things coming up. I’ve tried reading Revelations but it frankly gave me a headache. So I’m looking for some condensed versions of different viewpoints to help put into context other news/feature stuff that I’ve read in the mainstream and not so mainstream press lately. Yours included, DtC. Thanks for contributing.
here’s a suggestion- before tackling Revelation, start out with these Scriptures-
Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 (essentially the same passage- Jesus’s teaching to his disciples about the Destruction of the Temple 40 years later, and the End of the Aion, and the Presence/Coming of the Son of Man); I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and II Thessalonians 2 (Paul’s teaching about “the Rapture” and the Man of Sin/Son of Perdition aka “the Beast” & “the AntiChrist”, I believe btw that Paul teaches the Rapture comes after the rise of the Man of Sin).
later on (I’m out of time now), I’ll give several perspectives outline of the Revelation (the Preterist view- that it refers to events of that time, the Historical view- that it describes the process of Christian history, the Future view- that it forcasts the End Time events, the Symbolic view- that it deals with both the personal & the social struggle between Christ & Sin.)
Among other elements in Revelation that annoy me are repeated references to all kinds of things happening after “a thousand years” (i.e. Rev 20). Now, a thousand years may have seemed really impressive to a bunch of sheep-tending pre-industrial rubes, but with modern knowledge of geology, paleontology and astronomy, we know it to be the merest cosmic blip. Spending ten centuries with Jesus might be okay, but it’s the waiting around afterward for untold googles of years until the universe eventually succumbs to heat death and/or proton decay that sounds pretty dull.