Ask the Conservative Evangelical Christian Hopeful Universalist

Great Debates
61

Esprix- I was wondering how long before someone would pick up on that (I was actually expecting Gobear to show up barraging me with insults L).

Using the definition of “sin” given in I John, “sin (missing the goal) is transgression of the Law”- whether one considers the law against male-male intercourse in Leviticus, the “Noachic Law” of unlawful sex (which rabbinic tradition has considered as applicable to homosexual intercourse), or the heterosexual-marriage positive command in Genesis 1 & 2.
Why does the Biblical God (Who I consider the real God) consider it a sin? I don’t fully know. I can give theological explanations as to how man & woman mating images God in the creative potential of their intercourse, whereas same-sex mating does not, but I admit that can be theological BS too. It sounds good to me but I know why some would not find it satisfactory.

How does one atone? Well, our only real ATONEMENT is through the Sacrificial Death & Resurrection of Jesus (tho I do believe in sins where one harms another, some restitution should be offered- I don’t see how that would apply to homosexual acts), but we are called to TURN AROUND (the basic meaning of “repent”) and stop whatever we are doing that is against God’s rules- which I also admit is easier said than done. What are gays seeking God to do? IF POSSIBLE (and it is for some) they can seek re-orientation thru spiritual & psychological therapy. But if not, and such re-orientation is not easy or possible for many, then they are called to the same struggle that straights who for some reason cannot marry (such as myself at this time) to rechannel their desires into other things.

Btw, yes, I have gay friends. They know my views, and we agree to disagree.

What will the punishment be? Heck if I know. It will be fair & just & loving & towards the goal of restoration & reconciliation. It may also hurt like hell, like any type of surgery or radical therapy does.

I’ve known a couple UU members in real life, a few more on the Net, never had the opportunity to visit a UU church. From what I’ve read, I see there is a movement towards traditional Unitarianism emphasizing God, Jesus & the Bible, just not in orthodox tradition. Anything I say would just be second hand. I do hope sometime to be able to visit some UU congregations.

I do know that even in the oldest sense, I am not a Unitarian. I believe God is Trinity & that Jesus is the Son Person/Aspect of God

Thanks

62

“IF POSSIBLE (and it is for some) they can seek re-orientation thru spiritual & psychological therapy.”

—[Eve pulls the covers over her head and peeks out anxiously to see what happens]

63

Friar Ted, many of us who are active in that debate read the various lines about gay sex in Scripture as prohibiting the objectification of another as a vehicle for gratifying one’s lust (as distinguished from sexual desire – that being God’s gift to humanity that reproduction and physical expression of love are or can be a transcendent pleasure and not just a duty to be carried out, while lust is the perversion of that gift to self-centered gratification). In such a context, the prohibition of, say, me breaking my marital vows and selfishly getting my rocks off by having Esprix give me a blowjob makes sense, and does not contradict the bond of love that two gay men or women in a committed relationship have formed between them and which is not inappropriately celebrated in sexual acts. That the command appears to cover each and every gay sex act is derived from reading it out of context, as a standalone commandment, and not in the context of what God intended for humans to be and do – as that might be applied to a given gay person.

64

OK, so it’s a sin because God said so, some people can change (and you’ll excuse me if I :rolleyes: ), or if not they should stop having sex, and there will be some price to pay after death, but it won’t be eternal. Gotcha.

Good luck with finding a UU church. If you’re from the northeast, it would be fairly easy to find a congregation with strong Christian leanings. Check out http://www.uua.org for more info.

And, if I may, this quote from Polycarp left me speechless:

:eek:

Well there’s something I never thought I’d hear you say!

:eek:

( :wink: )

Esprix

65

One of the most profound discoveries of my life has been to learn that I am the Nazi and the Jew and the Stalinist and the Palestinian. I am the terrorist and the priest that was killed giving last rites to someone else. I am all of those things that I fear and I am the love that survives.

At the realization of this, I was totally bewildered. But it gave me, in time, a kind of release from any enduring harsh judgment of others.

If I could, I would take communion every day with those people that I often consider to be my enemies.

66

Your answer sounds like the question should be, “What is God seeking gays to do?”

To me, “missing the mark” or “missing the goal” (sin) means not being who we are created to be. And we are created to be loving human beings and to “make love” in the world. If through nature or our environment, we love someone of the same sex, then maybe that is what we are created to do. This doesn’t excuse any type of behavior that takes advantage of another or selfishly hurts someone. But the justification for loving and mating with someone of the same sex is God’s alone to judge.

And as for divine retribution, if homosexuals are to be punished for their love and the expression of that love, it seems to me that they are punished enough on this earth.

And what much worse punishment might God have for me for being smug and moody and short-tempered and remarried and self-righteous? Maybe I too face that punishment on earth – for these things have hurt others.

I think that any punishment due comes naturally or not at all. The Sacrifice “absorbed” it.

Thank you all for a peaceful place to bare my soul.

67

Zoe- the way I should have phrased it is “What are gays to do if they are seeking God?” Ya caught my clumsy grammar! L

As is probably apparent, I’m not comfortable with passing judgement on consensual homosexual acts but I’m also not comfortable with tossing out the plain sense of the Bible passages about it. (Tho I am admittedly tossing out the plain sense of the Bible passages about eternal damnation.) Nor am I comfortable with changing the definition of marriage beyond monogamous heterosexuality (tho the Libertarian in me also says that anyone should be legally able to define their “significant other” or “life partner”, I can see instances where hetero best friends of the same gender realize they are never going to marry anyone & set up a legal domestic partnership. Granted, they are gonna have a LOT more difficulty finding dates… or maybe not G)

Zoe- I understand but substantially differ with the idea of totally identifying with all humanity, good & evil. I am NOT Hitler- Yay me!
nor am I Mother Theresa- Oy vey mier! I’m not gonna gets his whacks from Jesus nor am gonna get her high-fives from Jesus. Jesus has His own rewards & punishments I’m gonna get.

Polycarp- I have tried to read that understanding into the Scripture but I’m not convinced & I have studied the arguments both ways.

Btw, I think you made a quote that will reappear often throughout the SDMB! L

68

I think we all think too much about sin, one way or another, and too little about love, and bringing our spirit to the Lord, and bringing His spirit to those in the world who are without love. I can leave aside my love for the Lord, because my physical lust fills me with a desire for exploitative sex. Or, I could set aside that precious love, because I feel a need to preach against the evil of the sins of my brothers, whatever I happen to think those sins are. Wouldn’t both of these cases separate me from the love of my Savior?

I am not charged with the judgment of my brother’s soul, nor of his heart, or his life. I am charged to love him, as I would love my Lord, and as my Lord loves me. That means his sins are his, and mine are mine, until either of us gives those sins to the Lord. If my brother is lost, then I am to seek him, and if he is imprisoned, I am to visit him, if he hungers, to give him food and if he thirsts, to give him drink. And if he cries out, I am to answer him, with the Love given to me by Jesus.

The sin thing is none of my business, unless it be my own sin. That matter too is best not glorified by telling of it to my brother. My sins, however grievous are forgiven. But if there is pride in the extent of that forgiveness, it is not the pride of my accomplishment. The Lord does not need me to show the extent of His mercy. What I am to do is simply to love, and have that same mercy as much as I can.

When I run out of sins, I can start picking up stones. It hasn’t happened to me yet, and I don’t expect it shall.

Oh, wait, I was supposed to be asking in this thread, wasn’t I? Forgive me, Friar Ted, for I have sinned against you. This whole pride thing is a slippery sin, indeed.

Tris

69

What’s with the G the L and the S ? Some sort of secret Christian code that NO one has informed me of ?

70

Well, I needed to illustrate adultery by an example, and I would not send anyone where I was unwilling to go myself, so I used myself as the example there. But I suspect you’re right about that being quoted… :o

Grienspace, I think the meaning of G, L, and S was in the Bible Code Handbook, Supplement XXIV. But I think you could get away with reading it as “grin,” “laugh,” and “smile” respectively. :slight_smile:

71

FriarTed:

Sdrawkcab- in situations where divorce is permissable, remarriage is also permissible. I believe Jesus was condemning the practice of divorcing in ORDER to marry another as an adulterous violation of the Spirit of the Law, tho it was techically allowable within the Letter of the Law. I Corinthians 7 allows divorce & remarriage for the innocent spouse if the other breaks the vows/obligations of fidelity & provision & living peacefully. This is the consensus of the historic Christian Faith- Catholic (which substitutes Annulment for Divorce), Orthodox & Protestant.

Why do you and other Chritians lie so often about what the bible says?

Clearly in 1st Corintians chapter 7:10 it says:

“Now, for those who are married I have a command that comes not from me, but from the Lord. A wife must not leave her husband. But if she does leave him, let her remain single or else go back to him.”

The only reason that remarrage would be allowed according to the above chapter verse 39-40 would be in the event of her spouses death and even then Paul says it would be better for her not to remarry.

Sdrawkcab was right. His4ever is a serial adulterer and you are encouraging her hypocracy by misrepresenting the bible.

I’ll bet god’s not pleased.

72

badchad,

I agree with you, that no one who takes the Bible literally can view being remarried any differently than having sex outside of marriage, or being an active homosexual. However, Friar’s asked that that topic not railroad his discussion, and despite his unfounded, fulsome and hateful statements about homosexuality, he deserves to have his thread stay on topic as well as can be, IMO.

73

Thank you Sdrawcab

74

I’m leaving religious debates alone these days, but FTR, I am not in the habit of storming into threads and barraging people with insults unprovoked.

In any event, you can believe whatever makes you happy, and if it pleases you to look down on me because of who I love, go right ahead. I’ll just turn my cheek and bless you in return.

[sub]My first vanity search and this is what I get. Swell.[/sub]

75

Gobear, OK shakes your hand