From this thread
My apologies for my tardiness. I also thought it best to start a new thread. Before I continue, I would like to provide some background that allowed me to arrive at the most comforting revelation that despite the foibles and ignorance of myself and my loved ones and the rest of humanity, that I do not have to fear that I’ll have to watch my children be tormented forever or be burdened by their eternal oblivion as a result of my laxity in their Christian education.
I was raised in an extremely devout Dutch-Canadian Calvinist reformed church. All extended family get togethers inevitably resulted in hours of discussion regarding religious matters. I wasn’t allowed to go to dances, movies, purchase anything on Sunday let alone do anything on Sunday that couldn’t be done on Saturday. Employment opportunities were limited to non-union companies. There was no outreach, but a clear sense that the one and only truth resided at this particular church and that somehow the Dutch were extrordinarily blessed because all I ever saw at church were Dutch Canadians , a distinct minority from my point of view. Truly, I believed that we were special and I believed all other churches and their members were insincere in their Christianity. We separated ourselves from the world best as we could.
At the age of 14 my mother died, and six months later my father broke away from this church and led all eight of his children into a Baptist style church which did not believe in pastors or instrumental music. At this point, my faith in churches was broken although my belief in God was not, yet I pushed Him into the far recesses of my mind as I pursued all the pleasures of the flesh with abandon. Although I still had empathy, I hurt many people, and it is safe to say that I became a disgustingly selfish human being.
When the knowledge came that I was about to become a father, I was involved in a DUI accident and the two events inspired me to seek out the Lord once again. I tried various churches, but the inconsistencies of each of their messages prevented me from feeling comfortable in their presence. Meantime my father who also had tried various churches that quite likely did not appreciate his outspokeness gave up on them and devoted his retirement to studying the scriptures on his own. Then one day he came to me with pamphlets from J. Preston Eby and declared his relief with the newly acquired belief in universal salvation. This doctrine captured me immediately, allowing me to read scripture in a totally new light.
I present the case for universalism because I feel so good and relieved with this knowledge that I wish to share with those who are burdened with the charges that their God is hateful and spiteful.
John 3:35
The Father loves the Son and has placed** everything** in his hands.
*John 6:39 *
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
I present the above passages which suggest that the entire universe was created by God for Christ and it is the will of God (which we pray for in the Lord’s Prayer) that Christ should lose none of it.
Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
*Isaiah 45:23 *
By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
1 Corinthians 15:22 *
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ* all **will be made alive.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of** the world**.
1 Timothy 2:3-6
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom forall men–the testimony given in its proper time.
Now I am clearly aware that the standard response to the claim that it is the will of God that all men be saved can be stymied by a man’s rejection. In other words there is only an offer of salvation to everyone, that it isn’t a done deal. God would like us all to be saved but alas, But let’s read further:
Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
*Isaiah 55:11 *
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
That speaks powerfully to me. It reminds me also of
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
But I am well aware that seemingly direct contradictions do occur in the bible. for example
Revelations 20:10-15
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Truly disturbing images. The greek word from which we get “torment” in the above passage is basanizo. Interestingly this word is used in a completely inanimate sense and translated as “tossed” without suggesting torture as follows
Matthew 14:24
But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed by the waves, for the wind was contrary
*Matthew 25:46 *
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
One can also translate “eternal punishment” from the original Greek words * aionion* and * kolasin* to “permanent corrective punishment”, which of course suggests a successful correction that will stand permanently. Such an interpretation is in keeping with the previous verses cited.
1 Corinthians 15:52 *
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the* last** trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable*, and we will be changed.
*most translation read incorruptible
This passage supports the interpretation I advanced for the previous verse
1 Corinthians 15:19-28
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
To me, this is one of the most powerfully clear and reassuring passage in the bible. I could paraphrase as follows:
“If only people who are like me have hope in Christ, then that hope is useless. But as we were all condemned with the death penalty by Adam, we are all reprieved by Christ, but in a particular order, first Christ himself, then those who have “accepted Him” at the second coming, and finally, when Christ has subdued everything in the universe, exacting voluntary obedience to His will, then he will present us all to God that God may be all in all.”
Not sure exactly what “all in all” means, other than a sense of universality is evident here.
I have the sense that I could go on and on, but if you or anyone else is interested, the main source that I’ve drawn on to present this post comes from the Christianworld Church site. A far more comprehensive presentation can be found here.
Finally I wish to present the words of one of the most famous and prolific theologins of the early Christian church, Origen as he represents the Christian belief during the 3rd century CE to a Greek Stoic philosopher named Celsus.
Celsus, 6k8, ch. 72, ANF, v.4, p. 667
The Stoics, indeed, hold that, when the strongest of the elements prevails, all things shall be turned into fire. But our belief is, that the Word shall prevail over the entire rational creation, and change every soul into his own perfection…for although in the diseases and wounds of the body, there are some which no medical skill can cure, yet we hold that in the mind there is no evil so strong that it may not be overcome by the Supreme Word and God. For stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that swells in Him, and the healing He applies, according to the will of God to every man. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: ‘My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent’….consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the name of the Lord, and serve Him with one consent; also that all contemptuous reproach shall be taken away, and there shall be no longer any injustice, or vain speech, or a deceitful tongue
How different is the public Christian message today! How did Christianity evolve from this view to the pessimistic message of Fred Phelps and Jack Chick?