Believing in God While Hating Him With A Twist

Great Debates
#1

In this thread http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=561614 ,
Curtis LeMay asked

Here I will ask the same question with a major change-

Yes, the God in question is Yahweh of the Hebrew Bible, Who is also the Triune God of the Christian Bible, which means that Jesus is The Unique Eternal Son/Word-made-flesh.

Yes, the Bible turns out to be an accurate recounting of the words & deeds & standards of Yahweh/Jesus- including the Deluge, the plagues, the slaughter of the Canaanites, etc. with a big re-interpretation…

The Eternal Destiny of each individual is their own free full-knowledge choice.
At the Judgment, you are shown-

-why God permits evil, both the big historical events & the ones which plague individual lives,
-how God intended & could have & could still turn everything each person has suffered for their ultimate good,
-every instance in your life where God revealed Himself to you & you resisted that revelation…

and your choices of Eternal Destiny are these-

enjoy Eternal Life in harmony with & worship of God, with an eternity of learning about what has happened & exploring/developing the Universe ahead of you

or refuse to live in harmony with & worship of God in which case you may choose
-to quickly or slowly fade out of existence with no chance of return,
-to exist eternally defying God in the face of His undeniable existence with no external punishments inflicted on you at all, just the unrelenting Presence of God & being surrounded by His worshippers who are constantly evangelizing you
as you always have the object of surrendering to & embracing Him.

Does any of this change the situation or would you still hope to be part of the Resistance?

#2

Nope, nothing changes.

And your last choice is a contradiction - you say “no punishments” and then say we’d be “constantly evangelised”? Which is it, the two are mutually contradictions.

#3

Can I machine-gun the evangelical worshippers, make a game out of it?

#4

Let’s say the evangelism is something lowkey like “Father & Jesus are just wonderful. You’re always welcome to join us” and they bring you cookies & are singing all the time.

No, you may not hurt anybody & they laugh off all attempts to insult or harrass them… or in the case of hot ones, seduce them.

Oh yeah, and your fellow unbelieving friends… every once in a while, one of them converts over.

#5

Given that the OT God is perfectly willing to lie, manipulate and fuck people over to further his own inscrutable ways, I don’t think I would trust it to explain itself truthfully.

Giving someone those 3 choices of what to do for eternity is completely evil in itself. I’d also like an explanation why it needed external worship, 'cause I think it’s ridiculous and sick. An eternity of being evangelized sounds only a little better - at least I could rant back at the poor brainwashed fools.

But if those truly are the only 3 choices (and again, how would I know?) Just death, thank you very much. In fact, just leave me alone altogether.

#6

A lot would depend on the answers to these questions, at least the first two;

Which better be damn good. Out of curiosity I’d listen, but it better not be just the standard apologetic ‘mysterious ways’, or his answer to Job where he essentially takes the piss out of a man who just lost his entire family because he’s not God and tells him to know is place.

As for the third, I can’t imagine any answer being that good. He’s omnipotent and couldn’t figure out a way to make me believe? Not exactly what I’d expect of a deity.

Knowing his character I’d probably end up in La Resistance anyway.

#7

Which means he’s evil or crazy.

Impossible, since it contains contradictions.

He’s either evil or crazy; there is no possible just, rational reasons for a being of any power to do so.

Not only is that impossible, but I don’t care in the slightest.

Never happened, if he says otherwise he’s a liar.

Disgusting. I’d rather hang out with Hitler for eternity, he was less vile.

Preferable. Not that I expect that he’d keep his word and actually let me escape like that, mind. The God of the Bible is a monster and can be expected to act so.

Which would be punishment, as said. And again, I wouldn’t expect him to keep his word anyway. At some point the thumbscrews would come out.

There are no circumstances under which I’d follow ANY god. Much less the utterly evil monster of the Bible.

If they were that evil, they never deserved my friendship.

#8

Can I get a restraining order or take other steps to get away from them? If not, I will definitely be using violence. If I can’t escape them or drive them off, then what you’re describing is indeed a punishment.

Barring God using mind-control (in which case all this is moot), I think my friends are being underestimated.

#9

Some clarifications & maybe expansions on this.

I don’t see God as needing or demanding worship. However, recognizing that He is Creator and dwelling in harmony with Him automatically carries with it a recognition that He is worthy of worship & that one grows as a creation & child of His through worshipping Him. In that state, worship will just be an acknowledgement of Reality.

Lets also add some details to “eternally existing surrounded by Him & His lackeys”- you & your fellow unbelievers can create communities where you can eat, sleep, work, have sex, build stuff, study history & the Universe. You can even move to other planets.

However, here’s what you can’t do-

God-Children can experience history via time travel, explore the Universe & make things almost by the power of thought with minor energy expenditure. Also, while marriage will not exist as it does on Earth, they can mate & have children. They cannot cheat on each other, or take other mates until the children are grown & on their own. Not that they are unable but that it would not occur to them.

On the other hand,…
-you can travel through history & the Universe & make things but it’ll take time & energy expendture, not as much as it does now but more than if you were a God-Child.
-you can mate, choose to be faithful, or to have multiple partners, or to cheat on each other, BUT you cannot have children.
-you may be able to distrace yourself from them but you will never be able to escape the Presence of God or the singing of His Children- it’ll just be part of the Universe’s ambience.

#10

If the answer to these is that he’s not omnipotent, I’ll be willing to listen. Otherwise, he shouldn’t need to use short term suffering to cause long term good, etc. And I don’t want to know why God permits evil. That’s easy: free will. I want to know why God causes evil. Y’know, earthquakes, tsunamis, those kinds of things.

Why should I worship God? No, really, why? If God really were all loving and wonderful and such, then he should be admired, emulated, praised even. But worshipped? I see no point in that beyond stoking his ego, which if he’s as wonderful as claimed, he shouldn’t need. I’d be willing to go for the harmony and whatnot minus the worshipping, but if it’s a package deal, he’d need to satisfy me in that regard too, after the first part.

As said before, being constantly evangelized is external punishment. Even if it’s gentle, it’s still unwanted, and it wouldn’t take very long for it to get really annoying.

Assuming God hasn’t satisfied me, and I end up here, can I change my mind after deciding to eternally defy God? If so, then I would choose to defy him, knowing that I could choose to cease existing when I got bored or fed up. If I wasn’t allowed to change my mind, I’m not sure which I’d pick.

#11

Then I figure in relatively short order I will be choosing oblivion because having my thoughts constantly invaded in this fashion is as close to a description of Hell as I can imagine.

#12

When I say “you may not hurt anybody”, I mean that you will be incapable of hurting them. Any blow you make against them will either pass through them or will not be painful to them.

You can distance yourself from them. However, the Light of God & the music of His Children will always be part of the atmosphere, however faint.

#13

Would this perpetual irritation be as annoying as, say… tinnitus?

#14

One more option-

if after adequate time in “Heaven”, you decide it to be intolerable then you can go to a world without His Light or His Children’s music, and you can make of it what you will. There will be no shortage of anything you need, but you have to stay there & you have no choice about who else chooses to go there also. You all can discuss & argue & have sex & fight. There are limits to the pain you can cause each other but you still can cause some pain to each other. Same with pleasure.

You’re welcome.

#15

Make “adequate time” two weeks, tops, and you got yourself a deal.

#16

Reminds me of a quote I heard this week, Stephen Fry imitating Vincent Price-

“Pray, speak quietly. Every sound you make is exquisite agony to me.”

#17

I look forward to reclaiming the Earth with my fellow atheists, free from God and his followers.

#18

I refute this thusly!

< kicks FriarTed in the nads >

#19

Nothing is or can be worthy of worship, nor is worship in any way a healthy or admirable act as far as I’m concerned. I find it about as sick as cutting yourself up with a razor for fun.

#20

If God is the father, and Earth the mother, can we not set the Child Support Agency after Him?

What if he has another “woman” elsewhere in the Universe[SUP]TM[/SUP], who also has children to support and who need someone to worship? Who gets priority?